Beruflich Dokumente
Kultur Dokumente
Preliminary matters
1 the time.
2 Q And the reason you were away was because?
3 A Going to school.
4 Q I see.
5 A In nearby towns.
6 Q Now, are you aware of whether there is a current
7 policy within the FLDS church with respect to the
8 age of marriage?
9 A I am aware.
10 Q What is the policy to your understanding?
11 A The policy is that there will be no marriages
12 performed or condoned within the community with
13 anyone under the age of 18. Or that's lawful in
14 the area, which is 18.
15 Q From your standpoint do you agree with that
16 policy?
17 A I do.
18 Q Do you have children?
19 A I do.
20 Q How many children do you have?
21 A I have nine.
22 Q What can you tell His Lordship about what you
23 taught your children about the choices that they
24 will have with respect to marriage in the FLDS?
25 A I have told them that they have the right to
26 choose. If someone has suggested to them they can
27 definitely say no and I encourage them to. I
28 encourage them if they do not want to be in a
29 plural situation not to.
30 Q Of your children I understand that -- well, let me
31 ask. How many your children are over the age of
32 18?
33 A I have four.
34 Q And of those how many are married?
35 A One.
36 Q And that was a daughter?
37 A Yes.
38 Q How old was she when she was married?
39 A She was 15.
40 Q Can you explain the circumstances to His Lordship,
41 please, within which that marriage occurred.
42 A At 15 years of age she was becoming very friendly
43 and liked a certain boy. He was also a teen. And
44 she was -- really wanted to get into a
45 relationship. She spoke to me and her father and
46 I strongly encouraged her that this was not a good
47 idea. But she again petitioned us to follow
8
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
In chief by Mr. Wickett
1 followed?
2 A No.
3 Q Why not?
4 A Because I believe that, like Joseph Smith was
5 corrected and condemned in his time at different
6 times, that it could happen to anyone.
7 Q Other than your daughter, have any of your other
8 children or stepchildren left the FLDS community?
9 A Yes, I have a stepson.
10 Q And do you have any kind of relationship with him?
11 A I do.
12 Q Can you explain the circumstances within which he
13 left the community.
14 A He was working about an hour and a half from our
15 town and he was living in a place where he was
16 influenced by his peers to drink alcohol and use
17 drugs. And he was given many opportunities to --
18 and assistance to try and stop those addictions
19 but he wasn't able to, and in the end he decided
20 to leave.
21 Q How are -- the issue of taking drugs and alcohol,
22 how was that treated within the FLDS in your
23 community?
24 A Basically we -- our values are that we don't use
25 drugs and alcohol.
26 Q And are people permitted to do that within the
27 community?
28 A No.
29 Q With respect to the same stepson, has there --
30 have you or your husband had contact with him
31 since he's left?
32 A Yes, I have.
33 Q And have you helped him in any way financially or
34 otherwise?
35 A Yes, my husband has helped him when he has
36 needed -- with finances, but he makes a lot of
37 money. He works in -- he supports himself pretty
38 well financially.
39 Q Has he ever expressed an interest in returning?
40 A He has. He -- it was probably about a year ago.
41 He said he wanted nothing more in his life than to
42 be able to return to the faith and the community,
43 and he moved closer to home. This is because he
44 was working and living about six hours ago -- away
45 before then. He moved close and he was visited
46 often and counselled, but he couldn't give up
47 drugs. And so he decided then to move about oh,
10
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
In chief by Mr. Wickett
1 MS. GREATHEAD:
2 Q Now, Witness No. 2, have you ever been to
3 Mesquite, Nevada?
4 A No.
5 Q Now, back to some questions about Bountiful. I
6 understand that Bountiful was established in the
7 1940s by a handful of families from Alberta. Is
8 that your understanding as well?
9 A Yes, it is my understanding. The exact dates I
10 was never really aware of. 40s.
11 Q And who do you understand the founding families to
12 include?
13 A I don't know if I want to mention names.
14 Q Well, maybe I'll put the names to you. Would
15 Harold Blackmore's family be one of the founding
16 families?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And Ray Blackmore?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And Dalmon Oler?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And were there any others that you know of?
23 A No.
24 Q Now, the population of Bountiful today -- and when
25 I talk about Bountiful I'm talking both about
26 those who see their prophet as Mr. Warren Jeffs
27 and the Winston Blackmore group. Do you agree
28 that the population of Bountiful is about 1,000
29 people?
30 A Yes.
31 Q And that the community has been split essentially
32 in half, so about 500 of those people follow --
33 Warren Jeffs and 500 of those people follow
34 Winston Blackmore?
35 A That's probably pretty accurate.
36 Q And within your group how many children would you
37 say there are?
38 A I would not be able to make any speculation on
39 that. I'm sorry.
40 Q Well, over half of the 500 people?
41 A A child being of what age?
42 Q 18 and under?
43 A Probably, roughly.
44 Q So somewhere over half?
45 A Yes.
46 Q Would it be two-thirds?
47 A Maybe not quite that many, but that's a reasonable
20
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 guess.
2 Q Now, I'm going to put some what I understand to be
3 popular surnames from the Bountiful community to
4 you, and I just want you to tell me whether you
5 agree that the name I'm giving you is a popular
6 surname in the community. Blackmore?
7 A Am I required to give names?
8 Q No, I'm just asking you to tell me whether the
9 name that I've come to learn to be a popular
10 surname --
11 A Yes.
12 Q -- in the Bountiful community whether or not it is
13 indeed one that you recognize as a Bountiful name.
14 A Yes, I do recognize that. With all due respect I
15 do not want to reveal anyone's identity.
16 Q No, I'm not asking to you reveal anybody's
17 identity. I'm just asking you to confirm whether
18 this is a popular surname within the Bountiful
19 community. So Blackmore?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Cooke, and that's C-o-o-k-e?
22 A No.
23 Q Fischer, F-i-s-c-h-e-r?
24 A No.
25 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Fischer in the
26 community?
27 A I don't. But there may have been someone as a
28 maiden name Fischer, but I don't know.
29 Q What about Cooke? Do you know anybody in the
30 community with the name Cooke?
31 A I know of one.
32 Q And so I guess here what -- I'm going to revise my
33 question and just ask if you know of anyone in the
34 community with the name that I present to you.
35 A Oh, okay.
36 Q So Johnson?
37 A Yes.
38 Q Keate, and that's K-e-a-t-e?
39 A No.
40 Q Oler?
41 A Yes.
42 Q Palmer?
43 A Yes.
44 Q Quinton?
45 A Yes.
46 Q Steed, which is S-t-e-e-d?
47 A Yes.
21
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 Q Chatwin, C-h-a-t-w-i-n?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Jessop?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Lane?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Emack.
8 A Actually --
9 THE COURT: Sorry, give me that name again.
10 MS. GREATHEAD:
11 Q Emack?
12 A Emack, yes. But I'm just trying to think of Lane
13 again because I don't think so. I don't think on
14 Lane.
15 Q Was there ever a person named Lane in the
16 community?
17 A There may have been. As far as FLDS go I don't
18 know.
19 Q So in these proceedings a woman named Ruth Lane
20 provided a video deposition. Did you watch
21 Ms. Lane's deposition, or video affidavit?
22 A A very small piece of it.
23 Q And do you know Ms. Lane?
24 A I know of her, yes.
25 Q And she was a member of the FLDS community, wasn't
26 she?
27 A Yes.
28 Q And then I was on the name Emack. That's
29 E-m-a-c-k. And I believe you said that you do
30 know people in the community with that last name?
31 A Yes.
32 Q Roundy. R-o-u-n-d-y?
33 A Are you asking have they ever been a member? Yes.
34 Q Yes.
35 A Yes.
36 Q And Barlow?
37 A Yes.
38 Q B-a-r-l-o -- sorry, I'll spell it for the record.
39 B-a-r-l-o-w?
40 A Yes.
41 Q And now, there are -- I'm going to put to you some
42 other names and ask you whether you recognize
43 these names as connected with the FLDS. They may
44 not be names of people in the Bountiful community,
45 but what I'm wondering is whether you know these
46 names as part of the larger FLDS community
47 including the people of Short Creek and FLDS
22
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 Q Leroy?
2 A One.
3 Q Rulon?
4 A Yes, one.
5 Q Heber, H-e-b-e-r?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And LeRon, L-e-R-o-n?
8 A I have heard of the name but it's not particularly
9 to our community. So, no.
10 Q Now, I am going to turn now and ask you a few
11 questions about your religion. You've indicated
12 that you have a prophet and that the current
13 prophet is Warren Jeffs?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And you as -- you believe that your prophet speaks
16 directly to God; is that correct?
17 A We believe that he can receive inspiration from
18 God. I believe.
19 Q And he gets this inspiration directly from God?
20 A That's what I said. He receives inspiration from
21 God.
22 Q And when you were growing up was your prophet
23 Leroy Johnson?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And you called him Uncle Roy?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And after Uncle Roy died the prophet became Rulon
28 Jeffs?
29 A Yes.
30 Q And do you remember when that was?
31 A I think it was around '83, 1983, but I'm not
32 positive.
33 Q And he, like Uncle Roy, was referred to as Uncle
34 Rulon?
35 A No.
36 Q What did you call him?
37 A Uncle Roy?
38 Q No, your prophet Rulon Jeffs.
39 A Uncle Rulon, yes.
40 Q And then after Uncle Rulon the prophet became
41 Warren Jeffs?
42 A Yes.
43 Q Your current prophet?
44 A Yes.
45 Q Now, you're taught in your religion, aren't you,
46 to prepare for the end of the world?
47 A All -- yes, FLDS members are. All LDS members
25
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 are.
2 Q And you're taught that the earth will be destroyed
3 and only the good and righteous people will be
4 saved; is that correct?
5 A The earth will be -- at some point destruction
6 will happen and -- yes, I could say that.
7 Q And to be considered good and righteous you have
8 to prove yourself good and righteous; is that
9 accurate?
10 A I would say not necessarily. You have to improve
11 intent too, I suppose.
12 Q Improve intent to what, sorry?
13 A Well, I -- I believe that -- that there's -- no
14 one is perfect.
15 Q But you strive to be good and righteous?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And that means that at times you have to
18 sacrifice?
19 A Yes, we do have to make some personal sacrifices.
20 I think everyone does.
21 Q And what do you say is involved in striving to be
22 good and righteous?
23 A Trying to live in the present. Trying to forgive
24 the past and, like I said, live in the present.
25 Q And is there anything else involved in being good
26 and righteous?
27 A Well, I certainly -- I would expect that I would
28 want to treat others like I want to be treated.
29 Q And what about the teachings that you received as
30 a child growing up in an FLDS community. What
31 were you taught about striving to be good and
32 righteous?
33 A That very same thing. Treat everyone with respect
34 and the way that you want to be treated.
35 Q What were you taught about your prophet?
36 A Basically what I have said, that we believe that
37 he is our leader and that he can receive
38 inspiration, and -- that's it.
39 Q And you were taught because he does receive
40 inspiration from God that you were to take
41 direction from him; isn't that right?
42 A We -- he does direct areas in our life, yes.
43 Q And you're supposed to follow those directions?
44 A If we deem them right for us.
45 Q And you were taught that following his directions
46 was important?
47 A I wouldn't say that, not necessarily.
26
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1
2 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Greathead.
3 MS. GREATHEAD: Thank you, My Lord.
4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. GREATHEAD: (Continued)
6 Q Witness 2, before the break we were talking about
7 your prophet, and is it not true that from time to
8 time your prophet would give certain directives
9 aimed at people specifically, for example, who
10 they should be placed in marriage with or maybe
11 that they should attend more prayer meetings or
12 repent, something to that effect?
13 A Can I get you to -- I'll maybe just see if I'm
14 understanding the question. Does he give a
15 directive in a certain part of someone's life?
16 Q Yeah, would he give directives aimed at you in
17 particular or individuals in particular?
18 A Yes, he could.
19 Q And have you ever failed to follow a directive of
20 your prophet aimed at you specifically?
21 A No, I have -- no, I haven't.
22 Q And do you know anyone who is still a member of
23 the FLDS who has ever failed to follow a directive
24 of the prophet aimed specifically at that person?
25 A Yes. Sorry, again the question. Do I know anyone
26 that?
27 Q Is still a member of the FLDS church that has
28 failed to follow a directive aimed specifically --
29 a directive from the prophet aimed specifically at
30 that person.
31 A Yes, I do.
32 Q And what directive was it that they failed to
33 follow?
34 A It was a suggestion of who he thought that they
35 should be placed with in marriage.
36 Q Any others other than that one person?
37 A I know of at least two.
38 Q And what directives were those two people faced
39 with?
40 A The same.
41 Q And that is not marrying who the prophet said they
42 should marry?
43 A That's right.
44 Q And when did that occur?
45 A It was probably -- it would have been -- one that
46 would have been about four years ago and the other
47 one probably a dozen years ago.
28
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 Q Oh.
2 A That's what we believe anyways.
3 Q Sorry. So that to get to the highest level of the
4 celestial kingdom though they must -- they must
5 choose to be reassigned to another man; isn't that
6 true?
7 A Yes. But like I said, as was set up by Joseph
8 Smith, there are different degrees in the heavens.
9 Q The highest level is the best though; right?
10 A Well, it depends on who you are.
11 Q Now, as you were growing up you were taught as a
12 girl not to interact with the boys; isn't that
13 right?
14 A No, we had -- I played sports with them. Like, as
15 interact in terms of having a boyfriend and sexual
16 interaction, yes.
17 Q So no sexual interaction. But isn't it true that
18 you were taught as a young girl to treat the boys
19 as if they were snakes?
20 A The statement has come up to mean that if you were
21 to see a snake along the road you're not going to
22 go and bother it, you're going to walk around it.
23 Q You're taught to walk around the boys?
24 A Not to engage in any close contact.
25 Q So you were never to be alone in a room with a
26 boy?
27 A I was not taught that, what you said, never to be
28 alone in a room with a boy.
29 Q It was okay to be alone in a room with a boy?
30 A It can happen. It would definitely depend on the
31 circumstances. If I was walking in the hall at
32 school as a girl and there was -- or I mean
33 everything is in context.
34 Q And so the context of you alone in a room with a
35 boy, was that something you were taught not to do?
36 A No. I was --
37 Q You were taught --
38 A Sorry. I was never told you should never be alone
39 in a room with a boy.
40 Q Were you taught that that was fine, it was okay
41 that you could be alone in a room with a boy?
42 A I wasn't really taught anything about that
43 particular situation.
44 Q What about talking with boys on your own? Were
45 you -- were you allowed to talk to a boy?
46 A Yes, I was.
47 Q On your own, just the two of you?
34
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 afterlife?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And who is it that does the sealing?
4 A It would usually be the prophet.
5 Q And you say "usually." Can the prophet request
6 that someone else do the sealing?
7 A As far as I recollect in the history I think that
8 has happened before, yes.
9 Q And in the marriage ceremony I've heard that there
10 is a special kind of handgrip that is -- that is
11 used. Are you familiar with that handgrip that's
12 used in a celestial marriage ceremony?
13 A Yes.
14 Q How does it work?
15 A As far as I remember, because it's been a few
16 years, you hold hands.
17 Q So does the prophet hold the hand of the man and
18 the woman who are being sealed?
19 A That was not -- to my knowledge, no.
20 Q Who holds hands then?
21 A The two that are getting married.
22 Q And what does the prophet do?
23 A Read the ceremony.
24 Q Have you heard the term the "patriarchal grip"?
25 A I think I have.
26 Q And is it part -- it's part of the wedding
27 ceremony, isn't it?
28 A I think that is what they call the holding of
29 hands.
30 Q If you're the second wife, as you were, is the
31 first wife involved in the marriage ceremony as
32 well?
33 A In my situation she wasn't, but I think in some
34 that they are.
35 Q Is she part of the handgrip part of the ceremony
36 if she is involved in the ceremony, the first
37 wife?
38 A I don't -- I couldn't be certain of that, no.
39 Q Now, you mentioned that usually it's the prophet
40 who presides over the wedding ceremony and
41 sometimes the prophet may direct that someone else
42 conduct the ceremony. So would that someone else
43 be the bishop?
44 A Because I can't remember specifics on it. I -- I
45 suppose it could be. But I -- I've never
46 personally -- witnessed that first-hand.
47 Q Have you been to weddings within your community
40
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 A Yes.
2 Q And that the prophet would often write down his
3 thoughts?
4 A In a book or write down his thoughts on paper?
5 Q Yeah. Just on paper.
6 A I -- not really aware of that.
7 MS. GREATHEAD: Now, I'm moving on to another subject
8 area.
9 THE COURT: How much longer are you going to be?
10 MS. GREATHEAD: I do -- I think that I am going to be
11 probably another half-hour, My Lord.
12 THE COURT: Okay. We'll take the luncheon adjournment.
13 MR. JONES: My Lord, perhaps -- sorry, if I might just
14 interject. There was -- during the answers we've
15 been careful to avoid names but there was a slipup
16 on the part of the witness and the name was
17 mentioned and I just wanted to invite Mr. Wickett,
18 if he has a concern over that, that now might be
19 the time to ask for a publication ban.
20 THE COURT: Well --
21 MR. WICKETT: No, I'm not asking for a publication ban.
22 THE COURT: Thank you.
23 MR. WICKETT: What is said is said.
24 THE COURT: Thank you. We'll take the adjournment.
25 Thank you.
26 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned
27 until --
28 THE COURT: Witness, you're under cross-examination so
29 please don't discuss your evidence with anyone.
30 Thank you.
31 THE WITNESS: Okay.
32 THE CLERK: Order in court.
33
34 (WITNESS STOOD DOWN)
35 (NOON RECESS)
36
37 THE CLERK: Order in court.
38
39 WITNESS NO. 2, a witness
40 for the FLDS, recalled.
41
42 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Greathead.
43
44 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. GREATHEAD: (Continued)
45 Q Witness No. 2, you've told that you consented to
46 your 15-year-old daughter marrying monogamously
47 but that you would not have consented to a plural
44
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 A Not to my knowledge.
2 Q An architect?
3 A No.
4 Q A university professor?
5 A No.
6 Q A college professor?
7 A Not to my knowledge.
8 Q A university-trained scientist of any type?
9 A Not to my knowledge, no.
10 Q A doctor?
11 A No.
12 Q A dentist?
13 A No.
14 Q A psychologist?
15 A No.
16 Q A physiotherapist?
17 A No.
18 Q A veterinarian?
19 A No.
20 Q A pharmacist?
21 A No.
22 Q A banker?
23 A Not to my knowledge.
24 Q Someone who has obtained a Masters degree in
25 business?
26 A Not to my knowledge.
27 Q A computer technician?
28 A Yes, we have computer technicians. I don't know
29 how far their education went in that area.
30 Q Would they be university trained?
31 A Not to my knowledge. But I don't know that.
32 Q They wouldn't have university degrees?
33 A No.
34 Q A government official of any type?
35 A I don't think so.
36 Q Has anyone in your -- in the Bountiful community
37 gone on to become a lawyer?
38 A No.
39 Q A notary?
40 A No.
41 Q A legal assistant or legal secretary?
42 A No.
43 Q A commercial pilot?
44 A Pilot. Not commercial.
45 Q A journalist?
46 A I don't think so.
47 Q A TV reporter or other media professional?
46
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 A No.
2 Q An economist?
3 A I don't think so.
4 Q Do you know of anyone in the Bountiful community
5 who has attended the Bountiful Elementary School
6 and Secondary School and then gone on to attend
7 the British Columbia Institute of Technology?
8 A BCIT?
9 Q Yes.
10 A I have taken courses through BCIT.
11 Q Anyone else?
12 A I can't really speak for them. No, I wouldn't
13 know that.
14 Q So do you know anyone from the Bountiful community
15 who has attended the Bountiful
16 Elementary-Secondary school and then gone to
17 attend Capilano University?
18 A Not to my knowledge, no.
19 Q How about the University of British Columbia?
20 A I don't think so. But I -- again, I can't really
21 speak for everyone.
22 Q You don't know of anyone that has though?
23 A Not that I know of, no.
24 Q Do you know of anyone who -- from the Bountiful
25 community who again attended the Bountiful
26 Elementary-Secondary School and then gone on to
27 attend the Kwantlen Polytechnic University?
28 A Again, not to my knowledge.
29 Q Do you know anyone that went on to the Okanagan
30 University College?
31 A No.
32 Q To Emily Carr University?
33 A Yeah, I would not know that but -- not to my
34 knowledge, no.
35 Q To Royal Roads University?
36 A No.
37 Q To Thompson Rivers University?
38 A There may have been someone that has taken courses
39 through Thompson River. I don't know.
40 Q Do you know how many people?
41 A I don't know them. I don't know of them. I've
42 heard of people talking about that particular
43 institution but I don't know if they went on. I
44 don't know.
45 Q What About Trinity Western University?
46 A No.
47 Q Do you know of anyone -- do you know if anyone has
47
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 A No.
2 Q Or on a hockey team or skate with a figure skating
3 club?
4 A No.
5 Q So your seven-year-old is not involved in any kind
6 of organized activities, whether they be sport or
7 art or any other type of activity outside of
8 Bountiful; right?
9 A No.
10 Q Sorry, so the answer is, no, they're not involved
11 in any activities --
12 A No, this particular child isn't. I have children
13 that are.
14 Q And so on the seven-year-old, the only contact
15 then your seven-year-old child has with the world
16 outside of Bountiful, is it fair to say it would
17 be a visit to a doctor or a dentist?
18 A Other than using the facilities in town, for
19 example, at the parks or the library, yes.
20 Q And do you -- well, has your seven-year-old
21 attended doctor visits or visits with the
22 dentist --
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- outside of Bountiful? And do you attend with
25 your child when he or she goes to these visits?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And you also attend when your child goes to the
28 park or the library?
29 A It would be me or another adult.
30 Q And I take it that when you've attended in the
31 doctor's or dentist visits, the doctors or
32 dentists have never told your seven-year-old
33 anything bad about polygamy, have they?
34 A No.
35 Q And these doctors or dentists never taught your
36 seven-year-old to mistrust authority, did they?
37 A I don't think so, no.
38 Q And so when you say in your affidavit that your
39 seven-year-old says, I cried and cried because
40 they were coming to get us, your seven-year-old
41 learned this fear either from you or others in
42 your community, didn't he or she?
43 A He has gotten information about the raid that was
44 done in Texas and our school gets a lot of
45 scrutiny from the government and, yes, he is aware
46 of inspections coming to the school. We tell all
47 the children that the school will be inspected.
51
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 MS. GREATHEAD:
2 Q So her first husband left the community?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is that correct?
5 A Yes. And she was given -- sorry.
6 Q And she was placed with another man after that?
7 A She requested to be placed, yes.
8 Q Now, what does "apostacy "mean?
9 A As far as I understand when you leave a particular
10 faith and no longer belong to that faith you
11 apostasize from it.
12 Q And you call the people who have left your faith
13 apostates?
14 A That is -- I don't particularly call them anything
15 but I have heard that term used.
16 Q And what is a gentile in your faith?
17 A Basically anyone that belongs -- doesn't belong to
18 my faith, or I suppose any other faith.
19 Q Now, you've told us that you -- that you know
20 Truman Oler. Did you review the affidavit he
21 filed in these proceedings?
22 A I did have -- I did look at it, yes. I don't --
23 well, no, I didn't look at the affidavit. I
24 looked at what was written in the paper.
25 Q So you're aware that he testified?
26 A Yes.
27 Q In these proceedings?
28 A Yes.
29 Q And I take it that -- well, tell me, would it
30 surprise you that he felt that he wasn't welcome
31 back in your community, in the FLDS community?
32 A I think, as I said before, that when someone
33 leaves and they don't share the same values then
34 it's not -- anyone that comes to us is treated
35 with respect, I believe. But, no, it wouldn't
36 surprise me that someone was not welcomed back.
37 Q Would it surprise you that he said his mom said he
38 would have been better off dead than outside the
39 FLDS?
40 MR. WICKETT: Well, My Lord, again lots of latitude in
41 cross-examination but that's crossed the line into
42 an entirely -- in my respectful submission, an
43 improper question. It contains, in the form of
44 the question and the answer that is solicited,
45 double speculation.
46 THE COURT: Yes, I agree with that, Ms. Greathead.
47 MS. GREATHEAD:
55
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead
1 A No.
2 Q Do you know of any boys getting married when
3 they're 16 or younger?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you know who Angela Campbell is?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q Have you met Angela Campbell?
8 A I have.
9 Q And who is she?
10 A She's a professor working -- I believe it's out
11 of -- somewhere in Ontario, and she came and
12 interviewed different members of our community.
13 Basically she is a law professor who is interested
14 in polygamy.
15 Q And do you know that she visited the Bountiful
16 community in 2008?
17 A I know that she was out there, yes.
18 Q And did you know that she visited again in 2009?
19 A I don't remember exact times but I know I saw her
20 there once.
21 Q Did you speak to Professor Campbell?
22 A Yes, I did.
23 Q And were you interviewed by Professor Campbell?
24 A Yes, I was.
25 Q Do you know if anyone else from the Oler side of
26 the FLDS side of the Bountiful community was
27 interviewed by Professor Campbell?
28 A I don't know of anyone but I wouldn't necessarily
29 know that.
30 Q When you were preparing your affidavit that was
31 filed in this matter --
32 A Yes.
33 Q Did you speak to your husband about the contents
34 of your affidavit?
35 A He was aware I was writing it. He didn't -- but
36 as far as -- I did discuss it with him.
37 Q And did you speak to any of the church leaders
38 about your affidavit?
39 A I think it was actually the bishop that -- it was
40 the bishop was the one that got a hold of me and
41 wanted me to write it. I can't remember exactly
42 but I think that's how it happened.
43 Q And I think you testified earlier that you knew of
44 women in the Bountiful community who had moved to
45 Canada to marry men up here; is that correct?
46 A Yes.
47 Q And I believe you said you were aware of roughly
67
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer
1 nine to ten?
2 A That I've been in -- in close contact with so that
3 I would know them.
4 MR. REIMER: Sorry, My Lord. We have the unique
5 situation of the phone ringing without a court
6 clerk here.
7 THE COURT: Oh.
8 MR. REIMER:
9 Q And just to come back to -- I believe your earlier
10 testimony was that you knew nine to ten teenage
11 girls who came to Canada from the US to marry; is
12 that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And these teenage girls had come to Canada from
15 the United States?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And they were married to men up here after they
18 arrived in Canada?
19 A Not always. They might have been married before
20 they came.
21 Q But they were marrying men from the Bountiful
22 community?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Or are you saying that they -- so the marriages
25 might have been in the States?
26 A Yes.
27 Q But then both --
28 A Yes.
29 Q -- or the couple would have moved back up to
30 Canada?
31 A Yes.
32 Q And in paragraph 13 of your affidavit you talk
33 about -- you say -- I'll let you get that in front
34 of you. It's a short quote here. In paragraph 13
35 you say "we have an extremely hard time helping
36 women immigrate when they marry as a plural
37 spouse, as it is very hard to get medical
38 insurance." Can I ask you who are referring to
39 when you say "we" there in paragraph 13?
40 MR. WICKETT: I rise only, My Lord, is my learned
41 friend asking -- I'm sorry to ask a question,
42 My Lord, is my learned friend asking for names, or
43 is he referring to people within the community?
44 If he's asking for names I'm objecting to it.
45 MR. REIMER: No, I understand that. I wasn't actually
46 asking for specific names, but perhaps a little
47 more detail than rather than just "we" -- is it
68
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer
1 A Into Idaho.
2 Q And do they stay in Idaho?
3 A Until an application is approved.
4 Q Sorry, what sort of application?
5 A A -- for example, if it was a plural wife
6 situation she may legally marry the man if he
7 wasn't legally married to his first wife or get
8 status through completing a course of education.
9 Q Sorry, they come into Canada as students then to
10 complete that course of education?
11 A Yes. Or make an application. Sorry.
12 Q Sorry. Go ahead.
13 A It has been my experience you can make an
14 application as a common law partner as well.
15 Q And are they disclosing in their application that
16 their husband is married to somebody else?
17 A He hasn't been in the case I've been involved in.
18 Q Not legally married but had he been celestially
19 married?
20 A It is my understanding with immigration that you
21 can have previous partners, and so we've told them
22 the truth.
23 Q So -- you say since you've been involved in these
24 you've been telling immigration that --
25 A That yes --
26 Q Or informing immigration that, yes, their husband
27 is actually in another relationship?
28 A Yes. I'm just speaking for one case, the case I'm
29 involved in.
30 Q And in that case has the individual, the woman,
31 the girl involved gotten immigration status here
32 in Canada?
33 A She's working on it.
34 Q How long has that application been outstanding?
35 A It's been about eight months. She's living in the
36 States.
37 Q Sorry. Both of them are or she is?
38 A She is.
39 Q And her husband is up in Bountiful?
40 A Yes.
41 Q Do you think that it would be easier for these
42 women to immigrate legally to Canada if polygamy
43 were decriminalized?
44 A I don't know. I would hope.
45 Q Now, you've been talking about girls coming up to
46 Canada from the United States -- teenage girls
47 coming Canada from the United States to marry men
70
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer
1 the schools?
2 A I could not comment on that.
3 Q And there were certainly pictures of the prophets
4 in the entrance foyer area of the school; correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So it's fair to say with this extensive teaching
7 and instruction of your faith, both at -- well, at
8 home, church and school, you were expected to know
9 the doctrines and covenants of your faith;
10 correct?
11 A Yes, I -- I know of them.
12 Q Well, you were being taught --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- those doctrines and covenants?
15 A That's right, yes.
16 Q Expected to know them?
17 A Not off by heart, but know -- we -- they were
18 referred to, yes.
19 Q And you were supposed -- you were expected to live
20 your life according to the doctrines and
21 covenants?
22 A Yes.
23 Q I have read from information provided by your
24 current bishop about something called the law of
25 consecration and stewardship which is also known
26 as the United Order of Heaven. And that is a
27 principle that requires essentially church members
28 to turn over their property to the bishop of the
29 church. You're aware of that doctrine; correct?
30 A I am aware of the doctrine that was preached in
31 Joseph Smith's time about United Effort Plan or
32 united effort. Living United Order. Is that what
33 you said?
34 Q No, I'm talking about the law of consecration and
35 stewardship otherwise known as the United Order of
36 Heaven that was established in 1831 and comprises
37 section 42 of the doctrine and covenants.
38 A That's right. I am aware.
39 Q And that is the doctrine that requires members to
40 turn over their property to the bishop of the
41 church; correct?
42 A It does require them to consecrate, yes.
43 Q In your life have you ever owned any property or
44 house or land in Bountiful?
45 A I own land that -- no, not in Bountiful, no.
46 Q Has your husband?
47 A No.
74
Witness No. 2 (for FLDS)
Cross-exam by Ms. Gaffar
1 Q In Bountiful?
2 A No.
3 Q You worked -- or you work full-time, your sister
4 wife works full-time, your husband works
5 full-time. From the income that you make how much
6 do you turn over to the bishop?
7 A As I said before we turn over -- well, I guess I
8 didn't mention the tithing. We turn over a tenth.
9 Q One-tenth of your income goes to the church --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- as a tithing?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And this is in addition to the requested monies
14 for assisting the legal defence of individuals
15 charged in the United States?
16 A Yes. That's correct.
17 Q You testified that you were interviewed by Angela
18 Campbell; correct?
19 A Yes. Yes.
20 Q How did you come to speak to Angela Campbell?
21 A I think my name was given by a friend to her and
22 then she called me on the phone.
23 Q Prior to speaking to Angela Campbell did you
24 discuss the prospect of speaking with Angela
25 Campbell with church leaders?
26 A No.
27 Q So when you were interviewed by Angela Campbell
28 are you saying that none of the church leaders in
29 your community knew?
30 A That is correct.
31 Q Did your husband know?
32 A I think I told him after.
33 MS. GAFFAR: Thank you, Chief Justice. Those are my
34 questions.
35 THE COURT: Thank you. Any other cross? No. Any
36 redirect, Mr. Wickett?
37 MR. WICKETT: You'll be glad to hear that I have no
38 redirect.
39 THE COURT: Thank you. Thank you very much, witness,
40 for coming to court.
41 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
42
43 (WITNESS EXCUSED)
44
45 MR. WICKETT: My Lord, I note the time. I don't think
46 there's any point in starting with the next
47 witness. I wonder whether my friends -- we had
75
Certification