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For all his 102 years of age, Oscar Niemeyer replies Section
Architecture, Interviews
succinctly regarding the aesthetic sense of space Author
and the artistic practice of architecture Atto Belloli Ardessi
Photography
Tuca Vieira
Published
26 Dec 2010
Avenida Atlantica 3940, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Tuesday 19 May 2009, at Keywords
5pm. Oscar Niemeyer kindly agreed to let me interview him in his top- Brasilia, Oscar Niemeyer, Ravello
floor attic studio overlooking Copacabana Beach. The main room has the Location
appearance of a wave, constructed around a continuous plate-glass Rio de Janeiro
window that offers a view to the horizon. In the middle of the room is a
grand piano that is played during pauses in the studio's work. For all his
102 years of age, the Brazilian architect replies succinctly regarding the Domus Network
aesthetic sense of space and the artistic practice of architecture. But he Add comment 0
also talks about the applied arts, Brasilia, new projects, and cities that Like 16
can change the life of man. 1
Atto Bel l ol i Ardessi : How do Brazi l i an arti sts i nterpret the concept of
utopi a? What i s a utopi a i n your vi ew ? Coul d Brasi l i a be consi dered a
utopi a?
Oscar Ni emeyer: I think Brasilia was always thought of as a necessity. In
the late '50s President Kubischeck believed that Brazil ought to develop
inland, so Brasilia was intended as a city that would lead to other
projects, expansions aspiring to repopulate the country's interior
regions. There is no utopia. Or rather this project was not only a utopia.
In your opi ni on, i s thi s necessi ty evi dent i n Brasi l i a's archi tecture?
How much has the ci ty's l ayout i nfl uenced soci ety, and i n parti cul ar
the i nhabi tants of Brasi l i a?
Brasilia's modern architecture employs reinforced concrete to find its
proper form, the line best suited to it as a symbol. The architecture we
offer is invention. We do not confine ourselves to organising space
simply with a view to creating functional forms. Architecture is
invention, a machine for creating surprise. Reinforced concrete makes
everything possible. We who use it as a plastic material must mould it
according to all the possibilities that technology provides. In Brasilia we
are currently building a 120-metre-high tower that will be topped by a
system of balancing mechanisms, pendulums and huge oscillating
structures which will move in every direction. The interior will contain
restaurants and other commercial facilities. We are also designing a kind
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it. This magazine we publish serves as a means to introduce young people
to all kinds of things. Something like this can be an aid to understanding
life, which is the most important thing of all. We would like to make a
world in which there is more justice for everyone. We have to look at
others without searching for their defects, but attempting to see that
they, too, have qualities to offer in joint activities. We wish to stand up
for this solidarity in every respect. Here is the phrase I once used as the
motto for one of my exhibitions: "Life is more important than
architecture. The fight goes on. In defence of Latin America and the
progress of the world." This is the only reason we are experiencing a
moment which allows us to cherish a certain hope; this is the only way
everything will change, the only way that no one will be able to lay their
hands on Latin America. Because capitalism is in crisis.
In your vi ew , w hat i s the rel ati onshi p betw een space and
archi tecture?
When you get down to it, what are space and architecture? Give me a site
and a programme, and the architecture will emerge in keeping with the
programme and the site. Our architecture is created using reinforced
concrete, and there are only a few supports touching the ground. As a
result, the structure becomes lighter and more audacious, as I mentioned
before. The spaces also become more ample, and in this way modified so
that people can congregate in them. One must always make every
building unlike any other. It is the same concept as for a work of art,
which arouses emotion in the observer because he or she is seeing
something novel and different. Architecture, as I said before, is
invention. All the rest is repetition and of no interest. The secret is in the
programme; every detail must work perfectly... At the moment I am also
designing a theatre in Argentina, a pavilion that will hold as many as
2,000 people. My clients are enthusiastic about the project. It's true that
one might find a more beautiful theatre, but there won't ever be one
exactly the same. That's what makes it a work of art: it is a different and
surprising thing.
Now that I've been i n Ri o for a few days, I'm struck by how certai n
bui l di ngs, especi al l y al ong the seafront, are posi ti oned al most as an
affront to thei r natural surroundi ngs. Look i ng from above, on the
other hand, I w as surpri sed at how the favel as seem more i ntegrated
w i th the envi ronment and that, extensi ve as they are, they're
paradoxi cal l y more respectful of i t.
Architecture is usually the result of the terrain and its surroundings. If
the terrain is steep, then architecture adapts itself to that. Even if they've
put up this great wall of buildings facing the sea, nature will scale it.
Nature is so rich as to overcome everything. Rio De Janeiro was founded
in 1500. The Portuguese built a road and erected buildings along it, side
by side. Two-, three-, or even four-storey buildings. They started this way
with utter simplicity. As soon as they finished one road they started
another. Architecture also followed the same path. Then one day they
felt they were running out of space and had to be more careful with it,
because the "garden" type of architecture had had its day. At that point
they began to build vertically and Rio became like New York, which is a
filthy mess. Let me explain. As buildings get taller they lose their hold on
the corresponding horizontal space, so that vertical architecture comes
to dominate. Only in France have I seen this concept used to good effect
in a vertical city, and that's in the district of La D…fense. There you find
both vertical architecture and horizontal spaces. It is a monumental and
beautiful city.
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of provincialism, because it is incorporating poverty into the wealthy
zone. But people don't care about this. We would have liked to create a
city that was both more simple and more homogeneous, where there
would have been neither so much poverty nor so much wealth. The kind
of architecture we communists would like is one in which the dwellings
were simpler, so that the major works, the theatres, the stadiums and the
cinemas, could be even larger, allowing everyone to participate in social
life. If I design a theatre today, who do I do it for? People don't even need
to enter it; they can see from outside and judge by that. But since I am
creating an original piece of architecture, I want everyone to share in it.
However, Brazil is very backward in these social aspects. Here in Rio,
people who live in the luxury apartments overlooking the sea regard the
favelas as enemy territory. Yet our brethren live there, stuck without
schools or any other facilities. It's only logical that they grow up angry
and rebellious. The worst thing is the lack of understanding. At least here
in my studio we try to provide an example of how we'd like people to
acquire a degree of knowledge. As I mentioned, for five years we have
had a teacher giving us lectures on literature, and now even on
cosmology. After his lessons we feel a little bit humbler. But it would be a
wonderful thing if the whole world could have an idea of the universe we
live in, which both humbles and enchants us at the same time. When we
look at the cosmos now, we feel small. We feel that man ought to be
simpler. Few things are important. Man is a poor wretch from the start.
One day a journalist came to me and asked: "What is the most important
word for you?" My answer was, "Solidarity." Another journalist asked,
"Oscar, what about life?" I told him: "Life is having a wife at your side,
and after that it's up to God." This is true. A wife is the most important of
comrades. As for life, take it as it comes. It's not at our command. Some
people come here thinking that we will save the world with architecture
or literature, but what is needed is solidarity. We have to think in terms
of equality, knowing that we men are not all that important, and
therefore we must be simpler at heart. The rest is trivial. I've had a lot of
work because I have been lucky. When I was young I designed a small
church that was just a little different, and got recognition at once. The
project was appreciated from the start. At that time I, too, was in search
of work. We have to be modest, without thinking of being important.
This thinking oneself important seems ridiculous to me. I only derive
pleasure from helping others.
The interview with Oscar Niemeyer is taken from the book After Utopia. A
View on Brazilian Contemporary Art, published by the Luigi Pecci Centre for
Contemporary Art in Prato, Tuscany, with the International Institute of
Futurist Studies, for the exhibition curated by Atto Belloli Ardessi with
Ginevra Bria at the Pecci Centre from 25 October 2009 to 14 February
2010.
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