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Osc illator Coil F or Aa5 Rad io. , h elp me w in d one.
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Skeith Posted: October 25, 2008 06:04 am
So ive built an AA5 radio from scratch following a comercial schematic. Problem is i dont get any oscillation for the local
oscilator. Im using a type71 oscillator coild which im sure is the wrong one. I used to have a bunch of old radio local oscilator
coild but I lost em all so Im stuck. I need to wind a coil for a 455khz local oscillator. Ive googled it but I have had no luck. I
will post a pic of the radio and a schematic in a few min, they are on my other pc and the ex is using it.
thanks in advance i know somone here has done this before or at least knows how.
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EDIT
Group: Spamminator Taskforce
Posts: 3,714 Here is the schematic and some pictures
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1 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
--------------------
-Barrett
Village Idiot Posted: October 25, 2008 07:19 am
Before trying another coil, try the following:

1. Check the continuity of the windings, to make sure they aren't open.
2. Reverse the leads on one of the windings. You may have the phasing backwards.
3. Switch the primary and secondary (you never know...).
4. Make sure there are no shorts between the plates of the variable capacitor.
Forum Addict ++ 5. Make sure the 12SA7 is not weak.
Group: Trusted Members If that doesn't solve the problem, order a universal replacement oscillator coil from Antique Electronic Supply:
Posts: 1,055
Member No.: 11,398 http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb...02=01_UNIVERSAL
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2 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
PS: Don't electrocute yourself. Those radios usually have a hot chassis. An isolation transformer is recommended, at least
while you're getting it going.
PPS: If you really want to wind your own, then you need to measure the capacitance of your variable capacitor with the
plates fully meshed. Use that value along with the LC resonance formula to determine what value of inductance you need for
the coil. Bear in mind that the local oscillator always runs 455kHz above the RF. So, if the bottom of the dial is 540 kHz, then
the low end frequency of the local oscillator is going to be 995 kHz. Assuming your variable capacitor is a 365pF unit, then
your local oscillator coil needs to be 70µH on the tank (secondary) side. The number of turns on the primary side will be
between 1/6 and 1/10 as many turns as the secondary.
--------------------
My brain hurts.
yeah i know about the hot chassis. And yeah its plugged into an iso when im working on it. I have the neutral wired to the
chasis side though, just in case.
ive tried everything there except reversing the windings. I have no way to check if the 12as7 is weak but ive tried 5 of them,
one is bound to work lol.
I might have one in a known working radio to try just in case.
Forum Addict ++
Im going to go try reversing the windings, see if that helps. back yo y'all in a bit on my progress.
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EDIT: wow those are expensive for a coil, and to think i used to have like 3 or 4 type 70s no idea where they went though.
whats the difference between a type 70 and a type 71 anyway, other than the turns ratio?
--------------------
-Barrett
Colt45 Posted: October 25, 2008 07:33 am
you got a scope? even if the coil is wrong, you should get some sort of osc, unless you hooked it up wrong.
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>]:::|-
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I was in the process of editing my previous post when you guys posted. I added some info on winding your own.
--------------------
My brain hurts.
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3 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
@colt yeah i got a scope thats how i know it wasnt oscilating, there was no fluctuation at all, just a 0v at ac bias.
well reversing the windings worked, well sort of. it is now oscillating, though almost 1000x too fast. Im oscilating about
400Mhz.... O_o not quite where i want to be.
I am able to pick up a station, though probably a harmonic. It is very weak and is very very quiet on the speaker....
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--------------------
-Barrett
4 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
I should also mention that your variable capacitor looks like both sections are identical. If so, then you will need to add a
padder (fixed value series cap) in order for the local oscillator to track properly. Remember that the local oscillator runs at a
constant difference above the RF, NOT a constant ratio. Hence the AA5 radios often used a variable cap with a different
contours on the rotor plates. If yours has identical rotor plates, then you need to calculate a padder value, and that will also
affect your oscillator coil value. I wrote a superhet tracking calculator to do that calculation. If you tell me the values of both
Forum Addict ++ sections of the tuning cap, I can tell you what values you need.

--------------------
Posts: 1,055
My brain hurts.
Member No.: 11,398
Sch3mat1c Posted: October 25, 2008 08:15 am
*Cough*
I can Guarantee you your oscilloscope does not go up to 400MHz. Mine barely does, and it's 200MHz rated (so it's maybe -6
or -12dB by 400).
Forum Addict ++
Interesting, though, that your meter states MHz, and gives the figure in decimal? So, that's more like 356 *kilo*hertz?
Group: Moderators
Posts: 16,149 Tim
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Joined: July 24, 2002
--------------------
Answering questions is a tricky subject to practice. Not due to the difficulty of formulating or locating answers, but due to the human inability of asking
the right questions; a skill that, were one to possess, would put them in the "answering" category.
both sections are identical. my meter says they are 480nF (i thought they were pF rating) I have another cap that has a 480
section and a 170 section, and another with a 480 section and a 240 section. would one of these be suitable.
Also what side does the smaller capacitance go on, the oscillator or the antenna tank?
Forum Addict ++
@tim, yeah i just thought of that as well.

Posts: 3,714 --------------------
Member No.: 2,695 -Barrett
480nF? your meter is whacked.
356kHz is.. well thats a sign of life at least.. It should be in the range of ~1MHz - ~2MHz (455kHz over the freq you want.. so
for a station at 1000kHz, it should be at 1455kHz).
So you either have too much cap or not enough coil.

Forum Addict ++
oh yeah.. the longer side of the coil should go to the grid.
Posts: 3,013
Member No.: 1,333 --------------------
Joined: October 02, 2004 >]:::|-
5 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
It can't be 480nF; that would be way too big. It's a 480pF variable. That's a fairly standard value.
When you have two different size sections, the smaller section is for the oscillator. However, there's no reason why you can't
use the tuning cap that you have.
Forum Addict ++ Here's a quick primer on superhet tracking:
Group: Trusted Members If you have a 455kHz IF, then to tune from 540 to 1700kHz, the RF stage must tune from 540 to 1700 (a 3.15:1 range), and the
Posts: 1,055
Member No.: 11,398 local oscillator has to tune from 540+455=995 to 1700+455=2155 (a 2.17:1 range). So the oscillator section of the tuning cap
Joined: October 08, 2007 needs to have a smaller range than the RF section. A common way to reduce the range of a variable component is to add a
fixed value component in parallel or in series. In the case of superhet tracking, it's normal to add both a series (padder) and
parallel (trimmer) capacitor in order to keep the tracking as close as possible. On the very old radios, and multiband radios both
sections of the tuning cap would be identical and padders and trimmers are added to make it track properly. On the AA5's, it
was all about reducing parts count and saving pennies. So, they developed the type of tuning capacitor that had two different
contours on the rotor plates so that one section tunes over a 3:1 range while the other section tunes over a 2:1 range, and
consequently doesn't need additional fixed components added on. Either type of tuning capacitor will work fine, but the kind
with identical sections needs to be properly compensated.
Here is what the tracking looks like for a dual section 480pF cap with the padder and trimmer as shown:
As you can see the tracking is exact at three frequencies, and then is off a bit at other frequencies. However, the scale of the
graph is expanded so that the error is accentuated. The worst case error is only 0.7%.
The required inductance values for the RF and LO (local osc.) are also given in the graph.
--------------------
My brain hurts.
Here's a less shitty schematic.
user posted image
--------------------
>]:::|-
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Sch3mat1c Posted: October 25, 2008 05:02 pm
QUOTE (Village Idiot @ October 25, 2008 04:01 am)

However, the scale of the graph is expanded so that the error is accentuated. The worst case error is only 0.7%.
Interesting, it looks cubic.
6 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
Forum Addict ++
The catch is, although it's only 0.7%, that's more than your bandwidth, which is a constant 18kHz wide (+/-9kHz is AM BCB
Group: Moderators spec as I recall). So you can't have good sideband rejection and tune the whole range effectively.
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Tim
--------------------
Answering questions is a tricky subject to practice. Not due to the difficulty of formulating or locating answers, but due to the human inability of asking
the right questions; a skill that, were one to possess, would put them in the "answering" category.
Village Idiot Posted: October 25, 2008 09:41 pm
Yes it's a cubic equation. With just a padder and no trimmer, it becomes a quadratic and tracking is not as good.
What effectively happens is that it's the local oscillator and the IF bandwidth that determines the tuning. The RF section generally
has a wide enough bandwidth that the .7% is not a problem (and it gets wider as the frequency increases).
Forum Addict ++ I designed the tracking calculator to give more weight to errors at the bottom of the band where the RF bandwidth is narrower.
So, you see that the peak error excursions increase as frequency increases.
Posts: 1,055
Member No.: 11,398 Here is what you get when you give equal weight to the peak errors:
The peak errors are all the same now, and at the bottom of the band where the RF bandwidth is the sharpest, is also one of the
points where the error is maximum. Hence the reason for weighted error optimization.
The AM broadcast band is unique in that it covers such a huge range of frequencies. So designing a superhet tuner to cover the
whole band in one shot and track well is not a trivial exercise. On the FM band and shortwave bands, tracking errors can be
better than .001%.
--------------------
My brain hurts.
hmm, not having much luck. I cant find a cap in the 500pf range for a padder so I attempted to use the other 2gang I have
that is approximately 240pf and 480pf which approximately fits the first chart you posted. 500pf padding 480pf is about 244pf.
Still nothing. My meter is being wonky, I swear I had a 1.5mhz - 2.something mhz sweep once, lest thats what the meter
showed but it only displayed it once. Im going to just calculate F using the scopes sweep speed. Im not too sure the coil is in
the propor range for inductance. Gonna see if I can find a datasheet for a type 71 oscilator coil.
Forum Addict ++
Also When i powered up the radio the next morning (before changing the cap) I wasnt gettign a nice sinusoidal waveform like
Posts: 3,714 before. It kind of ripples on the trough, sometimes so bad that it resembles a T-wave on an electrocardiogram. Ill post some
Member No.: 2,695
pics later as my cameras batteries are charging ATM.
Tried changing tubes, to no avail.
Also now when I connect my meter to the coil to measure F the damn thing stops oscillating.
Ill get back to y'all with some pics and more details on the matter when my batts charge and I have some tea.
7 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
Thanks for the input so far.
--------------------
-Barrett
Your frequency meter may be reading erratically because of not enough signal, or may be picking up a harmonic in some
cases. If you have a radio receiver with a digital frequency readout, that may be the best way to measure the frequency of
the local oscillator. Just place the radio near your project set and tune it until you pick up the local oscillator signal.
BTW what exactly is a "type 71" coil?

Forum Addict ++
--------------------
Group: Trusted Members My brain hurts.
Posts: 1,055
Member No.: 11,398
I do have a digital tuner, not sure if it still works though, i think one band was buggered up though i dont recall if it was the
AM or FM band. Have to check it out. I dont want to turn this project from debuging one radio to two lol
71 is a miller number i think, just like the miller 70 oscillator posted in the link way at the beginning of the forum.
Forum Addict ++ --------------------

-Barrett

Posts: 3,714
Member No.: 2,695
Even a regular radio without a digital dial will tell you if you're in the ballpark.
--------------------
My brain hurts.
Forum Addict ++

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CWB Posted: October 28, 2008 04:13 am
check here : http://www.oldradioparts.com/
navigate to the radio parts> coils , if's etc . you will dl a text file ... it is a long one !
there is a type71 listed as well as many others that may work if you cross reference the specs .
--------------------
Forum Addict ++ "Know how to solve every problem that has been solved"
R. Feynman '88

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8 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
Nothing40 Posted: October 28, 2008 09:14 am
Also check out:

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
IIRC they have lots of radio parts and stuff too. I recall seeing coils and stuff in their catalog.
Forum Addict ++ Here's some:

http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb...CH_TREE02=COILS
Posts: 2,709 (If that link works!?)
Member No.: 181
--------------------
"we need an e-kick-in-the-nuts button" -Colt45
Skeith Posted: October 28, 2008 10:51 pm
QUOTE (Village Idiot @ October 27, 2008 09:06 pm)

Even a regular radio without a digital dial will tell you if you're in the ballpark.
well the AM on the digital tuner works great. now comes the next question, Ive never used another radio to check the beat
frequency of the local oscillator of another radio. How do i go about doing so?
Forum Addict ++
--------------------
-Barrett
Posts: 3,714
Member No.: 2,695
You just want to make sure that the local oscillator is operatiing 455 above the station you're trying to receive. So, if you
have your project set tuned to a station at 750, for example, then your local oscillator should be running at 750+455=1205.
So, tune your digital receiver to 1205 and see if you can pick anything up. If the local oscillator is running at 1205, then your
digital receiver will go very quiet (all the background noise will disappear) and if it has a signal strength meter, it may move a
bit.
Forum Addict ++
Try adjusting the tuning capacitor on your project radio until you hear a thump on the digital tuner. That will tell you that it's
Group: Trusted Members picked up the local oscillator signal.
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Member No.: 11,398
--------------------
My brain hurts.
Well it seems the local oscillator is working, I can get the dead spot on several places along the band. Im not getting any
signal demodulation though, perhaps I have the wrong type of antenna. Is this radio more likely to have a small antenna coil
or one of the larger loop antennas?
By scoping the radio out at the different IF stages I am getting the Local oscillator all the way through nothing more, no radio
signal or modulated signal or demodulated audio.
Forum Addict ++
I think im getting close though

Posts: 3,714
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-Barrett
9 de 10 01/05/2011 04:59
The AA5 radios normally came with a flat loop antenna coil stuck to the back panel of the radio. They were something like 25
turns, and the overall size was about 4" x 8". But, you can use a ferrite loop stick as well. The important thing is to make sure
that its inductance is suitable for your tuning capacitor. For a 480pF tuning capacitor you'll need a 180µH antenna coil.
Does the local oscillator seem to be operating at the correct frequency? It should range from around 995kHz up to about
Forum Addict ++ 2100kHz. If it's way off, you may not pick anything up.
Group: Trusted Members An RF signal generator would be a big help. Do you have one?
Posts: 1,055
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--------------------
My brain hurts.
no RF generator. Only signal generator I have is audio.
How about a small transmitter, I built a small crappy overmodulated tube AM transmitter that I can place anywhere near the
top end of the AM band.
Forum Addict ++ --------------------

-Barrett

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Osc illator Coil F or Aa5 Rad io. , h elp me w in d one.

Skeith Posted: October 25, 2008 06:04 am

Village Idiot Posted: October 25, 2008 07:19 am

Before trying another coil, try the following:

Skeith Posted: October 25, 2008 07:26 am

Colt45 Posted: October 25, 2008 07:33 am

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Village Idiot Posted: October 25, 2008 07:41 am

Group: Trusted Members

Skeith Posted: October 25, 2008 07:48 am

Group: Spamminator Taskforce

Village Idiot Posted: October 25, 2008 07:50 am

Group: Trusted Members

Sch3mat1c Posted: October 25, 2008 08:15 am

Skeith Posted: October 25, 2008 08:16 am

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Colt45 Posted: October 25, 2008 09:59 am

480nF? your meter is whacked.

So you either have too much cap or not enough coil.

Village Idiot Posted: October 25, 2008 10:01 am

Forum Addict ++ Here's a quick primer on superhet tracking:

Colt45 Posted: October 25, 2008 10:08 am

Here's a less shitty schematic.

user posted image

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Sch3mat1c Posted: October 25, 2008 05:02 pm

QUOTE (Village Idiot @ October 25, 2008 04:01 am)

Interesting, it looks cubic.

Village Idiot Posted: October 25, 2008 09:41 pm

Skeith Posted: October 28, 2008 01:12 am

Thanks for the input so far.

Village Idiot Posted: October 28, 2008 02:03 am

BTW what exactly is a "type 71" coil?

Skeith Posted: October 28, 2008 02:55 am

Forum Addict ++ --------------------

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Village Idiot Posted: October 28, 2008 03:06 am

Group: Trusted Members

CWB Posted: October 28, 2008 04:13 am

check here : http://www.oldradioparts.com/

Group: Spamminator Taskforce

Nothing40 Posted: October 28, 2008 09:14 am

Also check out:

Forum Addict ++ Here's some:

Skeith Posted: October 28, 2008 10:51 pm

QUOTE (Village Idiot @ October 27, 2008 09:06 pm)

Village Idiot Posted: October 29, 2008 02:21 am

Skeith Posted: October 29, 2008 02:48 am

I think im getting close though

Village Idiot Posted: October 29, 2008 05:02 am

Skeith Posted: October 29, 2008 05:28 am

no RF generator. Only signal generator I have is audio.

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