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Classifications of Pumps
Selecting between Centrifugal Pumps and Positive Displacement Pumps
Sponsored Links Pumps are in general classified as Centrifugal Pumps (or Roto-dynamic pumps) and Positive Displacement Pumps.

Centrifugal Pumps (Roto-dynamic pumps)

The centrifugal or roto-dynamic pump produce a head and a flow by increasing the velocity of the liquid through the machine with the help of a rotating vane impeller. Centrifugal pumps include radial, axial and mixed flow units. Centrifugal pumps can further be classified as
y y y y y y y y y

end suction pumps in-line pumps double suction pumps vertical multistage pumps horizontal multistage pumps submersible pumps self-priming pumps axial-flow pumps regenerative pumps

Positive Displacement Pumps

The positive displacement pump operates by alternating of filling a cavity and then displacing a given volume of liquid. The positive displacement pump delivers a constant volume of liquid for each cycle against varying discharge pressure or head. The positive displacement pump can be classified as:
y y y y

Reciprocating pumps - piston, plunger and diaphragm Power pumps Steam pumps Rotary pumps - gear, lobe, screw, vane, regenerative (peripheral) and progressive cavity

Selecting between Centrifugal or Positive Displacement Pumps

Selecting between a Centrifugal Pump or a Positive Displacement Pump is not always straight forward. Flow Rate and Pressure Head The two types of pumps behave very differently regarding pressure head and flow rate:
y y

The Centrifugal Pump has varying flow depending on the system pressure or head The Positive Displacement Pump has more or less a constant flow regardless of the system pressure or head. Positive Displacement pumps generally gives more pressure than Centrifugal Pump's.

Capacity and Viscosity Another major difference between the pump types is the effect of viscosity on the capacity:
y y

In the Centrifugal Pump the flow is reduced when the viscosity is increased In the Positive Displacement Pump the flow is increased when viscosity is increased

Liquids with high viscosity fills the clearances of a Positive Displacement Pump causing a higher volumetric efficiency and a Positive Displacement Pump is better suited for high viscosity applications. A Centrifugal Pump becomes very inefficient at even modest viscosity. Mechanical Efficiency The pumps behaves different considering mechanical efficiency as well.
y y

Changing the system pressure or head has little or no effect on the flow rate in the Positive Displacement Pump Changing the system pressure or head has a dramatic effect on the flow rate in the Centrifugal Pump

Net Positive Suction Head - NPSH Another consideration is the Net Positive Suction Head NPSH.
y y

In a Centrifugal Pump, NPSH varies as a function of flow determined by pressure In a Positive Displacement Pump, NPSH varies as a function of flow determined by speed. Reducing the speed of the Positive Displacement Pump pump, reduces the NPSH

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Quote: Originally Posted by silversteed @georgekj EDC stands for Electronic Diesel Control. It's an ECU controlled injection system unlike the Inline FIP system where fuel injection is controlled mechanically. All HCVs have 6 cylinder engines. I'm not sure of the exact engine capacity but I guess it should be around 6L.Experts please enlighten If its Inline 6 cylinder FIP , fuel delivery can controlled mechanically as well as electronically. But what is the pumping element for the EDC systems? Does any one know the generic name for this system. Sorry to deviate from the topic of the thread.

20th January 2011, 07:29 julupani BHPian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bhubaneswar Posts: 715 Thanked: 27 Times Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#257

Yes most of the standard engines used by Indian HCV manufacturers today is around the 6cyl, 6litre mark. A common misconception is that inline FIP equates to mechanical control and rotary FIP to electronic control. Fuel metering control can be electronic or mechanical no matter what kind of pum is being used. EDC is a special term used for for an ECU controlled fuel meteing system. In these systems the only other addition to an engine is a ECU. Instead of mechanical forces from a governor controlling the amount of fuel being injected into each cylinder by the FIP, an ECU processes different inputs from the vehicle, like throttle, brake position, engine speed, etc and thus more accurately decides the amount of fuel to be injected so as to maintain a pre-mapped power and torque curves as accurately as possible. Of course suitable modifications are required to the FIP to react to electronic instead

mechanical stimuli. Hope this answers your question.

20th January 2011, 09:10 george_kj BHPian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Peoria Posts: 32 Thanked: 0 Times Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#258

So from what i understand , Raj bought a BS-2 engine which is electronically controlled FIP where as the BS-3 is released with a mechanical FIP? Thats quite an achievement for AL guy to meet BS-3 with an older system? Can some one clarify?

20th January 2011, 09:14 Ashley2 BHPian Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#259

Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NH7 Posts: 710 Thanked: 12 Times View My Garage

Its almost like a ECU(Micro processor) in cars. as told by Julupani It takes inputs from engine speed, vehicle speed,brake position,fuel injection pressure, temp, throttle etc and gives a accurate amount of fuel for combustion. For any trouble shooting you will have a socket from which you need to connect a scan tool which gives the details of malfunctioning of particular sensor if any. EDC's are much easier to maintain and should be hassle free in long run.

20th January 2011, 09:36 george_kj BHPian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Peoria Posts: 32 Thanked: 0 Times Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#260

OK. Thanks guys. I just wanted to know what kind of fuel system AL has in the market rite now. So basically both of them are pump , line and nozzle systems? One is mechanically controlled and the other electronically. Last edited by george_kj : 20th January 2011 at 09:44.

20th January 2011, 09:43 Ashley2 BHPian Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered Quote: Originally Posted by george_kj So basically both of them are pump , line and nozzle systems? One is mechanically controlled and the other electronically. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NH7 Posts: 710 Thanked: 12 Times View My Garage

#261

Dear, thats the confusion many people have. Both pumps can be controlled electronically and Mechanically but its very common to see only a Inline pump controlled mechanically and not a rotary pump.

20th January 2011, 11:30 julupani BHPian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bhubaneswar Posts: 715 Thanked: 27 Times Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#262

I think what george wanted to know was that is there any physical difference in the mechanism of fuel delivery. As mentioned, there isnt, its just a different way of controlling the system. Both Tata and ALL have been able to meet BSIII norms without the use of electrnic control units, using the more common inline fuel pumps. People prefer these because that is what a road side mechanic knows about. Rotary pumps are a lot more complex and proprietary technology. Thus even the authorised service station would rarely mount an exercise to repair one. They will just replace it and send the faulty one over to Bosch.

20th January 2011, 14:06 Auto freak BHPian Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#263

Quote: Originally Posted by julupani Both Tata and ALL have been able to meet BSIII norms without the use of electrnic control units, using the more common inline fuel pumps. To clarify, Its only AL that has been able to meet BS-III norms with the inline FIP. The TATA engine is with a Mechanical Rotary FIP. And this AL BS-III engine is the world's first BS-III engine with Inline FIP! It is completely mechanically controlled except for the electrical fuel shut off. Absolutely no electronics involved! As julupani rightly pointed out, its the mechanical inline FIP that is the most 'service friendly' in India! Last edited by Auto freak : 20th January 2011 at 14:15.

Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Chennai Posts: 110 Thanked: 3 Times View My Garage

20th January 2011, 14:31 julupani BHPian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bhubaneswar Posts: 715 Thanked: 27 Times Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#264

Yeah, sorry for that mistake, slip of keyboard. Tata no longer uses any inline FIPs at all, except for one rare model supplied by Cummins, which is electronically controlled. And the inline FIPs may be service friendly, but I would go in for rotary FIPs any day for their better efficiency.

20th January 2011, 14:57 Ashley2 BHPian Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered Quote:

#265

Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NH7 Posts: 710

Originally Posted by Auto freak And this AL BS-III engine is the world's first BS-III engine with Inline FIP! It is completely mechanically controlled except for the electrical fuel shut off. Absolutely no electronics involved! That was first seen in 3116 8x2 MAV.

Thanked: 12 Times View My Garage

.. a good attempt by AL Engine R&D team

20th January 2011, 20:11 Transsenger BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: KOCHI Posts: 259 Thanked: 0 Times Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered Quote:

#266

Originally Posted by george_kj If its Inline 6 cylinder FIP , fuel delivery can controlled mechanically as well as electronically. But what is the pumping element for the EDC systems? Does any one know the generic name for this system. Raj...Sorry to deviate from the topic of the thread! AFAIK, here is some information on the engines used in MCV/HCV; Currently the following fuel injection systems are in use in India: 1. Mechanical Inline FIP - The oldest and most prefered one in the market due to better service & repair network. Used by TML untill 2005 and AL as on date. The delivery quantity, pressure etc are governed mechanically. eg:BS1 engines of TML & AL; BS2 & BS3 engines of AL. 2. Rotary FIP - Introduced by DCM Toyota in the early 80's and later by Cummins in 1998 in Tata1312 (discountinued later). Again TML (697 & 497 engines) completely switched over to this system with enforcement of BS2 norms. The first BS2 HCV in India was from AL with 130HP Hseries engine based on this system. But AL later developed BS2 engine with Mech.Inline FIP. Even though Cummins 100HP BS2 engine was launch with MechInlineFIP in 2005, it was later stopped. But recently Cummins launched its BS3 engine(4 valve per cylinder) with Rotary FIP. 3. EDC + RotaryFIP (VP37)system - Introduced by AL in HCVs in India. TML also developed their BS3 497 & 697 engines with this system. Its in use currently, on TML, AL & Eicher BS3 vehicles. 4. CRS - Common rail based systems - used in Volvo B7R D7E engines, Cummins IsBe and now AL H-CRS engines etc

5. Unit Injection - used by Volvo in their B9R & Trucks. From any indian HCV operators point of view, if an engine (BS3/4) with Inline FIP(mech) is avaliable, then its the best atleast upto2015! Last edited by n_aditya : 21st January 2011 at 16:37.

20th January 2011, 21:06 julupani BHPian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bhubaneswar Posts: 715 Thanked: 27 Times Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#267

Dont know about the best part, as unlike inline FIPs rotary ones dont require too much regular maintainance. Rotary FIPs are way more efficient and adjust faster and better to changing engine speeds. And the Bosch manufactured rotary FIPs are one of the best performing aggregates of Tata trucks. I would say no matter what the emission norms, rotary FIPs are always better. Only Common rail injection is better. I think because the earlier inline FIPs required pretty regular maintainance and thinking that rotary ones would require the same, customers prefer the inline ones over the rotary. But the rotary doesn't need regular maintainance at all. Again sorry to raj if we seem to have hijacked the topic. I suggest shifting this argument to george's thread on his new intercity bus.

21st January 2011, 07:19 Transsenger BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: KOCHI Posts: 259 Thanked: 0 Times Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#268

The superiority of technology & performance is always better for a Rotary FIP than InlineFIP. But as of now there is no adequate facility for service & maintenance of these advanced system. RotaryFIP largely depends on the quality of diesel as the same act as lube inside the FIP, unlike inlineFIP, where engine oil is the lubricant. So if contaminated diesel is used (knowingly or not), these roatry FIP fails quickly and repair cost is more. Hence market

prefers inlineFIP system and surely this trend will change in future.

3rd February 2011, 15:24 Ashley2 BHPian Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered Raj.. updates plz. where is the chassis right now!

#269

Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NH7 Posts: 710 Thanked: 12 Times View My Garage

3rd February 2011, 20:12 raj_5004 Senior - BHPian Re: An AC bus this time! AL Viking BS-III Delivered

#270

the bus is to be delivered tomorrow. Its been painted in grey & silver colour. surprisingly, everyone like this colour too. in prakash, other tour operators are clicking pics of our bus & asking prakash that they want the same colour. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 3,795 Thanked: 8 Times View My Garage sadly, i dont have the pics right now.

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