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Transcript of Second Interview at RusseIl Offices with Major George O'Kane and Mr lHichael Pezzullo, L TeOt Hoy Abbott and lVis Mignon Patterson 9 Jun 04

-

Note:

Major George O'Kane

GK

M r Michael Pezzullo

lVIPZ

tTCOL Roy ,\i;t-i;;ti-

RA.

lVis Mignon Patterson

MP

MPZ:

George, thanks very much for spending some time with us yet again.

It's

currently

June I Olh at 1045 in the morning.

What r want to do now George is

talk for a few minutes talking about rep0l1ing process - our reporting process [0 the extent that r am able to·- obviously some of these decisions are yet to be taken by the CDP and SEC and the Minister ultimately. And then I want to get clarity of the issues, because I have been reading back into the issues that have been coming up in the Parliament in the earlier period, that lines up with the

earlier period of your tour

which goes less to detention treatment and the

 

J just feel for the need for the

 

completeness for the repOli to the Minister, we just need to clarify that because of the questions that have been asked, both in the transcIipt of the proceedings and in the Questions on Notice now. And then I am going to depart just after J J to prepare for a meeting with the CDF and the SEC and the Minister, and then 1 will leave you with Roy and Mignon.

I'

!

Transcript of Second Interview at RusseIl Offices with Major George O'Kane and Mr lHichael Pezzullo, L

-----

_._

-<.

V/hose name is well known. So you are asked to prepare, as 1 understand it bc.c2-,use you are the point of contact on a memorandum - 28 August :vlcrnoranduTll, Navyl its not signed) but I'm assuming that - do we think ifs

 

)he final or

,,';

.. Can I give the baclq,'Touncl to this?

   

,j

\

,

\liP?:

Sure.

CiK:

A couple of clays before, this Memorandum was raised as a result of our attendance the day before at the prison, the first time that I went there in the company of the Deputy Staff Judge Advocate, because what this was about was they had requested some I egal input into intclTogation techniques on a particular High Value Detainee. Now I had to gct 1ha1£\eared through the /W~lr?lian chain of command. I snoke to ColoneI!!. qlj and then Colonel :'.':1LJ~nd Air Commodore Bentley It the same time, where permission was 'granted to me to attend for tllis purpose, as long as it related only to advice for that particular person.

ivIPZ:

That one person?

 

Cor<>

That onc person.

'vlPZ:

Can you describe, without going to COmpaliments etc, can you describe who

that person was? Was it a BVD of allY

?

OK:

No, 1 can't recall now. 1 don't think it's recorded on the memorandum.

 

MPZ:

Nothing strikes you about the person, associated with weapons of mass

destruction, a central

?

GK:

I dOll't know who he was. It was a name that I was not familiar with.

It's fair

10 say that I wasn)t familiar with a lot of names,

iviPZ: R~gllt

because youlrc not there as an int officer) yOl/re not shaping the int

pjctl.lre are you.

')

Ci<:

They had a HVD.

W]H:n we actually went -first of all J got my approval, then

it took a day or two where J had to coordinate with the intenogation company

as 'Nell (0 make sure that they were fI'ee to meet.

.\(P/.

I,K

This '5 out (lfthe 205'il') f'

-I

I ,KO' re a company

.

TOm t lC

I

20 - Ih

).

They were aciually ruerred to as .

c

:\"IP1>

This is a special interrogation compeny or something

..

()

elK:

~he 'Facili!y lraq': that's right.

MPZ:

So you did the liaison. I think we've gone ove r the ground of the history of it.

MPZ: So you did the liaison. I think we've gone ove r the ground of the
MPZ: So you did the liaison. I think we've gone ove r the ground of the

.

..-

I What I Ju st want to ask you a bout an d 1 don ' t go to the ment of the OpInIOn - I'm not a lawyer and in a sense that's not my remit. There is a di sc u ssi on about some th i ng called "interrogation TTPs" - what ' s a TIP?

GK:

That's techniques, tactics " "I've forgotten myself what the full acronym

s tands for

but it's interrogation practices

 

something like that.

MPZ:

In military parlance, is that like ROEs - as Rules of Engagement, like the framework in which an interrogator works?

GK:

They're the specific tec hniques that they're p l alU1ing to

 

MPZ:

Ca n you recall any? Can you name some?

GK: S le ep man a gement, dietary manipulation

.

 

Like you can't sleep, you can sleep or whatever

?

GK: Dietary manipulation.

Iv1P Z : What does that mean?

GK :

They may restrict when the meals are actually provided.

Not to the point

where there is medical danger. not be unti l 4 o'clock.

I nstea d of having lunch at 12 o'clock, it might

MPZ:

I will ask you one legal issue - because I'm a babe in these woods - wouldjt be your view in intemationallaw, when you say dietary manipulation, you can't starve someone to death.

GK:

No, of course not. That

would be inhumane

and

that is an examp l e given by

the ICTY, the Internationa l

Courts for the former Yugoslavia.

........... .. Those decisions do actually define inhumane treatment as st arvat ion of detainees.

MPZ:

Because doing sleep an d d i e ta r y - w h a t e lse?

 

GK:

There could have been sensory deprivation. Once aga in th ese are on l y for limited periods of time.

MPZ:

But no obje ct ive thres h o ld s - the re is ju st a judg ement about length ? S o i f we kep t yo u sittin g h er e for 6 weeks and no food , that's torture and inhuman e . But if! rush off b eca u se I have to go to the Sec retary in 10 minutes, then the se guys give you a nice p l easan t time, then that's not torture?

GK:

No, of course not.

It's personal value and it's intensity and duration of a

particular event that will cause it to cross that line. Of course, it's go in g to

depend on different people as well.

 

MPZ:

Yes, it d ependant on t h e person - whethe r they're a ch ild , an old person, if you have a robust man .......

GK:

That's right. Some one who is trained to resist interrogation, all those sorts of issues come into play.

MPZ:

Sure, sure . Can 1 ask you this que st ion, this is what

I am leading to.

This is

what I am concerned about. An ADF officer being named, you know there is

a name there

violence

these techniques

GK:

Definitely not violence.

MPZ:

Can I ask the question? These techniques are, if you li ke , are not the actua l techniques of how to deprive someo ne of sleep. It's, if you like a procedure, and then the interrogators work out how to apply it.

GK:

TheY'\ 'e got their ow n manual to apply it to and their own tra ining on how to apply, that's correct.

\ ·[PZ:

Can you reca l l any classes and this seems to be a step above the tools that you

actually use. These are the

categories: sensory deprivation , dietary

manipUlation, sleep management. This is really important - can you try very hard to recall any category that could to a reasonable person infer application

o f violence or trauma, possibly induced by the fear of violence being imparted on you . You understand where r am going here.

GK:

Yes, I understand.

-MBZ;

A--P€lFSElR-€GweFifl-g-in-frent of a cell door with military dogs; 'straining at the leash. I need to ask you this George.

GK:

No, it' s good to ask that. There was no reference in that document that I

recall.

I can't recall the document - if! can't recall it, there was nothing in

there that caused me concern .

MPZ:

About the actual or potential application of violence? We have to be r eally precise here George.

GK:

There may be a perceived threat of violence.

MPZ:

Which is permissible in this framework?

GK : Yes, at th e highest level perceived

...

MPZ:

What do you mean by the highest lev el?

GK:

There i s never any position or any understanding to carry through and actually perform that violence.

MPZ :

So it's a lright to dunk someone's head under cold water?

GK:

Yes, I'd say that i s an actua l act.

MPZ:

That's an actual act?

GK:

Yes, that's an actual assault.

MPZ:

That's a bodi l y assault isn't it?

GK:

Yes.

MPZ:

OK.

But how do you impart a perceived threat of violence though if you don't

have a credible back -up?

If you're just pouncing around, mate I'm going to

give you a perceived threat of violence, you'd say soft cocks around here. Don't you have to sort of build an atmosphere whereby the person migh t come to believe that violence is in prospect?

GK:

OK. I may not have got that right. The way they understand it is that due to the c ircumstances of the person's detention they may perceive violence .

[No te: Maj o r O ' Kane commented th a t trained interrogators can explain this more accurately.]

"

MPZ:

As a prospect?

 

GK:

As

a

potentia l threat. And given the .....

MPZ:

What about seeing it though? I can induce a perceived threat of violence in Mignon:iH-tak-eReyever ttl the eomerandbeltthecrap"Out of him and say,

you ' re next.

So I don't do anything to her.

GK :

That's right. That wou ld not be permissable.

MPZ:

Because I'm assaulting him - can assau lt you Roy? You've pushed me to the edge a couple oftimes in the last week mate (laughter) .

GK: '

They exp l oit - this is my understanding, but you may have to talk to an interrogator to explain.

MPZ :

But you were talking to the interrogators.

 

GK :

I was but we didn't discuss this. I've tried to exp lain what my understanding

of the techniques are but

They're

captured, and given the ir experiences that particular facility, there would be

fear. Saddam used it, tens of thousands of people were executed there, it was used for torture and so forth, it has a fearsome reputation for the Iraqi peop l e . That's not the reason that the US used it. It was because it was the on ly fac ility stand ing that ...

MPZ:

They shou ld have sen t the job order to me. I wou ld h ave whacked them up one, thrown a bit of greenbook money going .

GK :

But th en you would have to guard the bricks so they don't get sto len during the night by the local population. They're not supposed to go on and contribute to that fear, but they're not supposed to give comfort. Like, mate

yo u'll be OK. They' ll

say nothing because the atmosphere

.

MPZ: So no comfort, but no activation of the threat?

GK: No activation of the threat.

MPZ:

I am with you.

GK:

But in some cases they may choose to - once again it depends on

the

 

personal it y, who they're dealing with - they may choose to actually give the

person five-star tr eatment, reassuring

They'll test whichever techniques

psycho logically will work

best on that particu la r detainee.

MPZ:

So ifl'm getting smoozed they might find .....

 

GK:

They might find that the colleague type of approach, and this isn't the

language that's used, might be

this isn't the language they use

there's a

numbe r of di fferent

this is w hat 's suppo s ed to happen and then they 'll try to use the bes t techniqu e

 

that's best

fo r th a t pe rso n or individual.

\1PZ'

Look that'

ext remel y us eful. Thi s is a world o f practice s and processes th at

very few people h~~:_~~dany _exposur~~o

_, _

GJK

hoo k. I'm

gom g

to g et a c hance to go b ack ana

re-.,iise

tnlsare n ;i f, be cause

I' m re ally

'

\1 PZ:

Su re , You mean th e tr a ns cript.

GK :

Yes, the transcript.

Because I'm talking off the top of my head here. For

ex ample, the threat of violence, having thought about it. Ye s , there is an aura o ffear generated in some cases. Once again, its temporary and it's not rea l or

it ' s not supposed

to be real.

M PZ:

Can I ask you this question, and it would be remiss of me to not ask you this

que s tion. You ' re dealing with

the interrogation company, and we both know

that they became subsequently world notorious. You said to me the other day,

in a somewhat throwaway line, that looking back over my time, you can almost s ee that there was' a wink and a nod' factor at play and whilst you were personally, as I understand it, reviled by the depraved images you s aw in

April,

you get the fee ling - and we've all got 2020, all perfect 2020.

I'm 2020

Roy's 2020, Mign's 2 020, we are all 2020 -

do you look back now and see the

'w ink and a nod' or did you feel the 'wink and a nod' contemporaneously at

Ih e time ?

GK :

Ther e was no 'wink and a nod' at that particular meeting. The only rea son

th at,

was that I heard of more efficient proces s es being introduced was

 

from Guantanomo Bay arriving, and th e n it

 

bec am e ,. ,this was like two to three weeks later ..

MPZ:

Whic h

Com ma nd er; 5't1 ! org ani ses ..

G K:

I do n ' t

know abo ut Commander/ 5 · 41

I Bu t that 's when -

onc e ag ain thi s is

in Ihe contex t o f, I' ve p ro ba b ly said thi s befo re, p eo pl e ha v ing th e ir limb s

blown off, c hil d ren be in g killed da il y.

If yo u' ve go t the int e llig e n ce from th e

i nterrogation, if you ' ve go t the in form at io n you can

sto p th at happ ening. If

"ou don' t ge t it -th is is no t a th eore ti ca l ques ti on -

peop le wi ll d ie to morrow .

1(, a life and death

game"

, it 's a li fe an d d ea th game. An d th ey do n 't have the

lUXUry of time . an d they ' lI e i th er get th at informatio n quick l y or they won't ge t

it and IheY"'e missed the o p portuni ty.

I d on't kn o w if we went into thi s at the

last inten'iew . bu t whe n we go t t here, aft er h a ving discu sse d it wi th the OI C o f

the company, they weren't rea ll y a ft er leg a l confi rmati o n o f what th ey were doin g. because they we re afte r,.

\!PZ :

\\ ' elL \\-ere vou son ofa

' b lo w-in' to us e an Austra lia n phr as e.

Is the re a sense

(If

' ''e ha"e to talk to th e law ye rs, bu t vou know . ge t them thr oug h an d ..

.).

\

OK:

They were very happy to see us . They really appreciated us coming out to them.

MPZ : Were they concerned about their own legal position do

you think?

OK:

They were because they were

under investigation from

a d eath in Afghanistan.

The same company had come directly from Afghanistan to Iraq. They were tired, hadn't been horne for 12 months. Because of this investigation, they wanted 'top cover'. And legal was just a stepping stone from the Corp Headquarters to get that top cover.

MPZ :

Sorry, let me get that clear. So the company through their chain of command seeks legal opinion or V Corp sends it down to them?

OK:

No, they've sought it and we've gone down to discuss the issue. When we go t there, it wasn't what it seemed to be.

MPZ:

What do you mean?

 

OK:

Well we went out there to discuss the legality of their techniques, but really

we didn't even get on to that. Really what happened was that they really

wanted

we did discuss some things generally, but what they really wanted

MPZ:

'This advice is subject to approval". So you didn't work on that thereafter?

OK:

That's right, I gave it as I was walking out the door to the Deputy as I was down to Babylon for the transfer of authority from the Marines to the Polish division. And when I came back - a week, eight or nine days had gone by, a hundred things had happened -and I just said to him in passing, did that letter

go? And he didn't

know, he just goes, I think so .

 

MPZ:

And

your previous

information to us is that you didn't think

sorry, the

who le thing went NOFORN after a period

.

OK:

Then very short ly after that, so we're now talking towards the middle of September. The next time the question of, and that's when I heard that MAJGEN Miller was coming out and that's whe n I've made the deduction tha t in fact their interrogation is not providing the results that they need.

MPZ:

Sure

implicit.

OK:

You've go t to remember every 12 hours, there's s ignificant acts (you've got it in the material you've got), every 12 hours, you don't know what's going on in the rest of the world . All we are focusing on is who's been killed and blown up in Iraq. That is in your face 24 hrs a day besid es the attacks on your own location and so forth. Clearly there was a huge amount of pressure to stop

the US casualties and the only way they're going to get that is by getting the infonnat ion through interrogation. So when we heard that MAJGEN Miller, you know, it was discussed in the office, that he was coming to review interrogation practices ..

-~MP-l-c-Everyone-knew-w hete he WaS coming from?

GK:

He was coming from Guantamo Bay. And it's to be assumed that the

thresholds was go ing to be lifted se cret and went off to one of my

somewhat. But it was NOFORN, it became US co lleagu es to then take on .

MPZ:

Yes, but we discussed yesterday that there was a common room. You can't reca ll the iss ue com ing up after it went NOFORN?

GK: We had an in ter-office di scuss ion. He sa i d "I can' t show th is to yo u George".

the US casualties and the only way they're going to get that is by getting the
international. ..... "(reading o ff --- -- - So these things, " l aw cou rt
international. ..... "(reading o ff --- -- - So these things, " l aw cou rt

international. .....

"(reading o ff

--- --

- So these things, " law cou rt s an d comp lex

-.---

-...

MPZ:

docu m en ts). It is rea ll y quite a comp lex

field, it

is how long is a piece of

string type of stuff

No wonder yo u end up with big book s like the one at the

en d of the tab le th a t the tape recorder can't see. (R ea ding off documents) " ....

 

even though in ex treme cases such as se riou s sexua l assault always a que s tion o f what is se ri ous.

.", but there is

GK:

We are talk ing abo ut rape, induced abortions , rape c amps , biting off the

testic les of oth e r people, p h ysica l mutilation

..

MPZ:

And starva t ion and death. human morality.

OK, so there is an outer

limit wh ich is basically

GK:

Inhumane treatmen t is how the courts describe that.

 

MPZ:

Inhumane an d tha t is lik e your unspoken 'can't do's'?

GK:

We ll if you try research humane in a lega l context, while what you find is there is no t too much on what humane is , but there's a lot on what inhum ane

is, so

you are trying to define it by reference to th ose so rt of ci rc umstances.

'v!PZ:

OK , weill

am just about done . That's intrigueing.

 

GK:

One point,

in paragraph one,

I've written the policy s ubstantially complies

w ith

the Geneva Convention

s ub s t an tially exceed the time

and a lso in paragraph three eac h TTP does not I have used the word substa nti a lly and I

..

MPZ:

And you didn't do any work in relation to that because you went down to talk

to the Poles or someth ing didn't

you?

GK:

That ' s exact ly right, there was a

function and all the staff branches had to send

so meone down to attend. The transfer from one cohesive war fighting

  • - .~-. -~di-vision"to-a-2:e country,-muiti-national diVision that doesn't even speak the same language ..

MPZ:

The Poles did very we ll at

Mate, I have two last questions before r must go

. ... and then I will leave you in very capable hands.

RA:

Can ljust ask one question, and tha t is - this letter. I' m j ust confused. You've been say ing that you have been called out by the int group? To get this sort of interim cover and they're hoping not so much for your legal advice but l ayered cove r. That letter is in re lation to wha t cover they wante d for what they di d in Afghanistan?

MP:

lsit?

GK:

No, the letter is for the individua l person but the reason they want that cover is for, as I unders tand it, they were under investigation at the time for another incident.

RA:

So therefore Iraq what they're wanting is rather than have another investigation somewhere down the line, they're wan ti ng ge t approva l for what they're doing in Iraq.

GK:

Yes exact ly .

RA:

That's what [ wanted to clarify.

 

MPZ:

Mate, I just ha ve 3 quick quest ions.

[ sai d 2, I lied.

You then

.I do want

to tease one thing back in the [CRC reports - [ think late

.that

someone says to you

?

GK:

They do, the la s t week of

.....

MPZ:

George, get on to this. OK you see in a visit to Bahgdad central detention fac ility , the Abu Ghraib visit at 3. 1, we've taken you through this before . There's leRC delegate witnesses of detainees with significant signs of concentration difficulties, memory problems, problems with ve rbal expression, incoherent speech, acute anx ie ty reactions, abnorma l behaviour, su icid al ideas. These symptoms appear to have been provoked by the interrogatio n period and methods.

GK :

Yes

\-1PZ:

S o me detainees were kept in total darkness - well I'm not scared of the dark . So me detainess were kept nak ed in their cells . These are some of the

a ll ega tion s, and I know then that Karpinski pu shes back with a different view , say i ng well .......

GK :

The Mil i tary Po li ce an d the int e rr oga t ors ha d a differ e nt

v ie w .

 

-----M P Z:

s cars around wrists obviously caused by tight handcuffs . And I'm

O b vio us tryi n g to

put

out

o frny head images of people drape d over beds and stuff.

GK:

It' s easy for

m e

to do that becau s e I can clear l y think back to pre .....

MP Z:

Yes , that ' s right, I am looking at this through April eyes. But you're not,

yo u're actually looking at

Some detainees wore female

underwear

you've seen

through November. all this stuff.

 

GK:

I hav e n't seen this s ince last year.

 

MPZ:

Und e rs tood.

You pulled it out for [' .'-\t

IthOUgh.

 

GK:

I didn't read it.

 

MPZ:

No wornes. So you've actua lly got, yo u ar e probably one of the few Austral ians, I suspect, proba bly on the face of the globe that has a pre-April

vi e w o f this. Can I ask you this question? And I do accept that we're post April. But as best as you can, try to remember back to November. Did you

make a connec tion between the sorts o f discussions

yo u we re ha v ing with the

M is , t he interrogators, w ho are now the subject of criminal proceedings in the

Unit e d Sta tes. Th e di sc u ss ions you had with them around the fomntion of

this advice . You told us about this manua l that you had

exam in ed, th e TTPs

. we might ju st pin d o wn with George later, this tactics, techniques and

w ha t

?

G K:

Pr oce dure s , and so mething el s e . That might pro cedures.

be tactics, techniques and

M P Z:

I 've g ot to as k yo u thi s question.

It' s ea s y for me doing the kind of historical

r ec on s trucion - I'm loo king at this document,

I 'm looking at that document

and I ' m s a y in g,

Ge o r ge g ave them the advi ce,

be careful a nd

the se guys

we r e n ' t

careful.

 

GK:

Yes .

MPZ:

m ake tha t co nn ec tion or did you t hr o ugh pace of

work o r

D id yo u w hateve r

[ ' m j u s t tryin g to

?

GK:

To me the leRC report calls that ill treatment.

To me the majority of those

techniques basically prove that interrogation is working.

And th e other thing

tha t the [CRe

..

;v[P Z:

Sorry wha t do yo u m ean?

 

,.

GK:

That interrogation is working , they're getting them

these a re the mo st

.... dangerous, vio len t people in Iraq , they should be, they 'r e getting them into a posit ion wh ere they're reducing their, they ' re persuading them to cooperate, this is where they're going. Once again you ge t infonnation to save lives. Now those techniques to me when I read them, I've gone well this is - they call it ill

treatment, but we call it successful interrogation techniques. They're tired, they're stressed for a period of time, but once again it doesn't point out tha t this is might be for 72 hours.

MPZ: But wha t's the female underwear thing?

GK:

Well, that's a humiliation issue.

 

MPZ:

Can you do that? Is that part of the technique?

 

GK:

Well, I've never heard of it before until - once again, the techniques themse lves don't actually go into 'put some female underwear on someone's head.

MPZ:

Right, because that is the

MI's business, tha t's their

tactica l business. But

which category does that come under?

I mean, sleep management, dietary

manipulation, 'fashion in sult' ..

.

GK:

You know you're probably better speaking to interrogators because they can

reel

off all

the different sorts of approaches, but humiliation

.

MPZ : But hang on, in the legal framework that you're trying to help them with. And remember, these guys are under investigation and they're saying, shi t we'd better get some lawyer s, and it's not American lawyers talking to them, it's an

ADF la wyer, ADF values, we push force for good. We take a different

view

of these things. Just draw me a connection . How does female underwear, as you understand it, connect to any - not interrogation techniques, I accept that you're not go ing to those i ssues, but you've tried to construct a glob a l lega l

framework where all

the practices can be nice l y s lo tted. You'd hope that

there's a practice not outside the legal framework like rape or death and so on ..

GK:

Absolute l y.

MPZ: So w here does the underwear come in? I 'm not trying to triv iali se this but.

GK:

Well; that's not something that was ever discussed with them, but I understand that tha t wou ld be a process of trying to humiliate that particular person.

MPZ:

Bu t is that legal, where does that fit in? It's dietary manipulation ...

not sleep management,

it's not

GK:

No, but it's

you've only given me like

three.

MPZ: So wha t' s the one that deals with humiliation? What's that called?

(

OK:

Th a t is a separate approach.

It's like the approach 'good cop, bad cop' ...

humiliatio n

not giving comfort.

It' s an app roac h . And there might be cause

MPZ:

So, in international law humiliation for a person of Muslim faith, "as evil as

they are", and I'm a Defence officer and these are people that are killing our

people in some cases

..

 

OK:

And Iraqis as well .

MPZ :

Correct, so just understand where I am coming from too. Humiliation, pig

...

OK:

Because we're not talking about GC III Prisoners of War.

 

MPZ:

I am not going

here to legal distinct ions,

mate.

I ' m go ing h ere

to mora l

framework, that's all.

I f there wasn't an ADF officer involved, we w ou ldn 't

give a shit. That's an Ame rican issue.

It's an ADF officer sitting there.

I'm

jus t trying to get you r menta l framework here . There are detainees of the Muslim faith, some good some bad, some of them have just been swept up,

t h ey've got certain issues

about die t , they can't ea t pork.

So what do yo u do,

do you stuff pork down their mouths - the interrogators . You would

argue that

the interrogators dictate the actua l technique - wha t 's the legal, like meta-

category, that sits around stuffing pork down an Isl amic person's throat?

GK : I'd say that would be an assault because you are physically forcing them ....

MPZ:

But what about a plate of pork, that's all you are going to get mate - is that man ipUlation of die t ? Connected to humiliation?

GK:

That would be

Yea, we

..

MPZ: Inhumane?

OK:

It wou ldn't be a technique that J would ..

 

MPZ:

Is it in or out?

OK:

I'd say that

would be ou t.

MPZ:

It's a really difficult area, mate, very difficult.

 

OK :

It's a value judgement to the individua l peop le subject to

their own individua l

experience and train ing and so on.

example.

I'd probably have, weil l know I have a

high thresho ld to Col Abbott for

MPZ:

To what? I'd like to know abou t

this, threshold to what?

 

GK:

Threshold to w h at might be approp ri ate

...

(

(lie ones: and I've picked this up from media reporting) that have been given

Ihe

(wink and a nod' to turn up the heat.

;APZ:

So .you reckon it has come horn non-A.ll11Y,

 

Gl<:

I'd

he surprised if the US !\rmy

Military Intelligence

because they're lhe

the I\.llleri.c~ns an, \Jery stnct

 

!vIP7

Can you try not to look back through April though. Did you have any awareness at the time of

..

?

(J)(

I don't think I even saw any civili2Jl contractors there at the Time. Because I had a meeting with all uniformed personnel.

MPZ:

So 2020, you're thinking that that might have been what's going on?

GK:

In fact, the first time that I found out that they had non-US military interrogators was, I thinJe, was when I went on that operation to pick up that ..

MPZ:

On the ship.

CJK:

The HVD.

And that's where I met.

iviPZ:

That \vas la.ter l wasn't it?

GK:

Yes, that was laler.

Thai was 17 December was Ihe lirsl time I had met

someone

that wasn't ..

MPZ:

The lirst lime you'd met civilians.

(if(:

That I was conscious of during my time there.

MPZ

Mate, before Roy hits me, just two very quick questions. I notice tbe author copies the memo to CJTF-7 C2. I wanl to ask you a question about them. The Deputy C2 X is, of course, Commande~ f.S41J. He's got a recollection of having a discussion with you about what he mistakenly lodged in his survey,

and I mllst ask him about this, because it's in the survey that's now on the SOD file. He thought the discussion was about interrogation ROEs. But

\.,l1on I pressed gently, It can'l be ROEs because he had NOFORN.

Do you

remember having any kind of discussion with him and showing him any kind

o( docurnent')

CK:

\1PI:.

I-fe's got a reasonably clear memory.

CK

\.jy disclission With Comn13l1dcr ~""-4\ _lIVas, as I recail it, tumed around and

! had a discussioll wilh WGCDRs41

as wcll aboul this, because wc

discussed it toget.her

was about, and this \vas fairly shortly after I arrived·

it

had to do with what role he could actually play in the US AmlY interrogation

process,

And he had a paliicularly issue because they wanted to use him,

\~

__-~.£IJ.

in his unjfonll as a tool for a pmiicular infenogafion process for a

particular individual.

\/jPZ:

And he said yes or no?

(JI<:

j believe he said 110,

He had

to get that cleared, and the answer 10 that was no,

And he was just discussing that with me,

\1['1::

He's got a vague recollection of being shown a document, which for short

 

hand

reasons he's

calling ..

GK:

Unless I did show him for particular purposes, it's in paragraph one of the Memorandum for C2 X Ops being referred to that branch for comment It

may well have been that document. Now

,1 can't remember what that

document says,

Now"

MPZ:

Mate, I can't remember what I showed someone on 27 Aug last year. It was probably something on Pt Nepean or.,

CK: It was nothing controversi ai, otherwise

I'd remember it

Just a standard, ,

Mi'l:

Yes, he was a bit vaglJC about it to, He sort of,

CK:

I m"y Well, because he was working in Ihe C2 X area, have had discussions abollt this document.

MPZ:

Well, the only reason I am chasing this is because Brown in rabbiting on Clbout ROEs, so we've now touched on,

Ci](:

J"ve never seen, ,Iirat came out after the fAiller visit and I never saw that particular document

\ljPZ:

OJ(, lind finally, I'm hoping you have a clear enough memory of this, Australian National ireadqUClJ1erS Middle East Area of Operations directive regarding embedded officers, standard template" ,you remember getting that

 

don't you?

CiK:

Yes,

I did get liraL

\1PZ:

There is just the reference to

,"seck gllidance and reference to me the

Commander should your assigned duties or duties" ,to you by lhe coalition,

u1C!uding" ,detainees,

,custody control maintenance" ,proceedings

before lhe judiciary or other military tribunal.

CJl<

i \va.s inciudcd in that dC2

..

red

that with thcnl 1 yes.

  • 'viPI'- intcrvic\v or intcnogation",

\9

GK:

That's right.

Interrogation was one of those issues tha t

we had to get

clearance from and that's why

..

MPZ:

That's right.

Did you formally raise with~ and get a tick, like written

type tick

?

GK:

No. There could

 

--- Co;:;v~;s~tion with Colonel ~and Air Commodore Bent l ey in the corridor

of CJTF·7 where it was decided to

164 \ 1sa id I can't clear this, it has to go

.. to the Commande r , so he had a discussion with WGCDRI""'4 \~as well. And

in that foyer, he's gone OK, as long as it's in relation to an i n di v idual

and not

 

interrogation

a d v i ce ac r oss the

b oard.

MPZ:

But I'm con fu se d now.

Is this abou t one person or

 

GK:

This is about one person.

MPZ:

W e ll sorry mate , no t on my read in g

of i t.

assoc i ate d w i th your

v isi t the day befo r e abo ut one p e r so n

b u

It might be ...

GK:

This memorandum that started it was about one person - one named individua l. So that is the context of the rest of the advice.

 

M P Z:

I'm done. Have you got anything else from me.

I ' ve got to put a tie and a suit

on now and talk about managing up mate. We're going t o be writing

 

furious l y,

putting stuff together ove r the next 24 hours.

So we are all in situ.

GK:

Mike, the

only point I wou ld just like to clarify, and this is because

of what

has been reported in the newspapers and the media this week a bout my advice

advising

that the G enev a Conventions don't apply.

 

MPZ:

The Karpinski letter, so ca ll ed.

GK:

Yes, the Karpinski lett er.

We need to make this clear, and jump in Si r if I am

mis-stating the position. Bu t two

different standards of treatment app ly, two

d

ifferent

categories.

The Geneva

Conventions are a ll about limiting death and

injury in the civ ilian population. So at the most basic level it is about separa tin g you r co mb a tant s and your non-combatants. You can kill and des troy each others combatants, whereas spa ring destruction to the civilian popu lat i on. Geneva III gives a whole li s t of protections to some combatant

who is a Prisoner of War. That's captured in uniform and a ll the rest of it and

it's specifica lly enumerated into what privileges they

ge t. When we ge t a

 

s ituation when we haven't got regular forces, an d