Ain't Misbehaving: Do British children need the army to sort them out?

Battle of Ideas debate, 30 Oct 2011 Notes by Harley Richardson

Disclaimer
These are my sketchy personal notes of debates at the Battle of Ideas 2011, which I attended in a personal capacity. I thought they might be of interest to folks who weren't able to attend. They're not comprehensive I'm a fast typer but some of the speakers were faster talkers - and any quotes I give are from memory and may not be 100% accurate. I tried to capture the main points I thought each speaker was making, but if you're one of those speakers and you feel I've misrepresented you, please let me know. I've flagged up the names of questioners from the audience where I know them.

Blurb
From http://www.battleofideas.org.uk/index.php/2011/session_detail/5751/ The Conservative-led coalition white paper on the importance of teaching appears to have gone back to basics on behaviour in schools. The army has even been called in with the Troops to Teachers proposal for ex-soldiers to go into failing schools. But most teachers are already familiar with behaviour management strategies (aka, getting the buggers to behave) and parents know all about the naughty step from TV programmes. So is the hard line on behaviour a step too far by the new government? Or, as David Starkey claimed in the Channel 4 programme Jamies Dream School earlier this year, is behaviour so bad even the best teachers cant deal with it unless they become like lion tamers dealing with savage beasts. Meanwhile, many school-age children were involved in the riots in London and other English cities in August, leading many to lament a more general collapse of adult authorty. Every day, schools receive complaints from shop owners and bus drivers about the general rowdiness and rudeness of schoolchildren, so at least one hardline comprehensive (the Mossbourne Academy in Hackney) has banned its children from entering local shops at all. So, as a BBC Panorama programme Classroom Warriors hinted earlier this year, will the army make the difference for a generation of softies who do not know what it means to be disciplined? After all, a recent study showed ex-soldiers made a difference in New York schools, and British comprehensives with cadet squads claim to be showing improvement in exam results as well. So why not roll it out across the country as an example of what the Big Society really means? So do teachers and parents, passers by and the general public all need the back-up of the army to deal with this problem inside and outside the classroom? Can we all learn a lesson in discipline from the one section of society that really knows about authority and how to do it? Or is this a step too far away from education in the drive to sort out the basics of civility? Should schools focus on teaching, and make that the basis of discipline rather than seeing it as an entirely separate problem? Do we really need the army to do a job on the yobs - or are British kids really just being themselves and not misbehaving at all?

Speakers
Michael Shaw, section editor, Times Educational Supplement; invented the term 'happy slapping'. Jamie Bartlett, head of violence and extremism programme, Demos; writer on extremism and binge drinkings. Daisy Christodoulou, English teacher; author Skills and Knowledge in the UK Curriculum (published shortly) Dr Mark Taylor, assistant head, Addey and Stanhope comprehensive school; London convenor, Insitute of Ideas Education Forum Chair: Kevin Rooney, head of social science, Queens' School, Bushey; Insitute of Ideas Education Forum

Michael Shaw
Doesn't think there's a crisis of child behaviour which needs the army to sort it out.

Idea of bringing in the army dates back to WWI at least. GK Chesterton said he was bored of the discussion back in 1910. 1933 craze for smashing in windows. Lord Baden Powell said: promising sign of spirit of adventure. Adrian Elliot, author State Schools Since the 1950s: The Good News, looks at cases of extreme violence over the years. In Hull 5 boys tried a boy and set him on fire. Their punishment was they had to pay 5 fine and bring him flowers in hospital. There's a history of school shootings in UK. In 1938 the shooting of a teacher was the main story in the Times that day but was not followed up. Some things have got better, others got worse. Spread of low-level misbehaviour in classroom and increasing lack of parental respect. Truancy has gone down. Has seen an example of an army school. Wasn't what you'd expect, children liked the extra attention.

Jamie Bartlett
His dad was a computer programmer, gave him and his siblings a list of things they had to do each week and docked 10p every time they missed some thing off. Everybody has an anecdote of what parenting they think works. Anecdotes don't tell the whole picture > so we need research. All the problems are with young men too much testosterone, not being expended. Always been a problem. Need to give them more opportunities to channel that in a positive fashion. What does the army bring? Discipline, structure, task orientation. All fundamental to young people's character. Children need love and discipline. The latter very difficult for parents today due to time pressures. UK comes somewhere near bottom of list of time spent with children. Disciplined structure and activity can fill the gap. Gives them the opportunity to see beyond their own horizons. One of the reasons young people drawn into extremism because it offers a sense of adventure. In a corrosive and destructive way. Every cadet or scout class is oversubscribed. Liberals don't like it very much, but a little bit of discipline does us all some good.

Daisy Christodoulou
A lot of military metaphors about classroom as a battleground, teachers donning armour. Rather than seeing pupils and children on separate sides of No Man's Land, need to view them both as on the same side. The enemy would then be the intangible force of ignorance. Although the army is hierarchical, it's not necessarily that top down. You want to delegate decisions to the people on the ground who have the best information. Captains have more freedom in what they can do than teachers. General Patten's maxim: Never tell a man how to do something, tell them what you want them to do, and you will be surprised by their ingenuity. Teachers told in micro-detail what they have to do. But very little about what the aim is.

Army would be wiped out if it had no aim, classrooms going that way. Could learn a lot from the army.

Mark Taylor
Should we get the army into schools? No. Or, they should be there, if he can go to Afghanistan to advise them on the history of the situation. Behaviour is now a subject so people have all kind of tips on what to do. And some teachers need it throws you into areas of authority and personal freedom. (His top tip - if you're going to use glue, put it out before the lesson, otherwise there will be disruption.) No wider understanding in sociey about how you create order. Not in favour of army... but you have to recognise people don't get on bus because there's kids on it... people back off... On TV... any education show you can name... filmmakers always pick up on the behaviour. We don't see anything about the joy of education. We don't expect kids to sit quiet and pay attention. Behaviour no longer seen in a scholarly way a matter of concentration it's been reduced to discipline.

Discussion
Kevin Rooney: Is there really no crisis now? Jamie Bartlett: We're in a state of perpetual crisis. Society has always struggled to socialise young men in particular. No longer any wars, so need to find some other way to keep them occupied. Mark Taylor: Yes, there's a crisis when 50 year old men skateboard down Brighton beach, the Stone Roses are reforming and look the same as they did in 1990 crisis of growing up, of adult expectations of students. Exam boards don't expect much of them. Yes there's Gifted and Talented, but there's a wider problem. Kevin Rooney: Isn't parenting just a matter of personal choice? Jamie Bartlett: Some very general guidelines that seem on aggregate to make a lot of difference. Very generic. Michael Shaw: Lots of private schools now offering parenting classes, so there is a demand. Kevin Rooney: His pupils get good results, so lets them chew gum. Are people exercising authority but not in authority? Mark Taylor: In his new job, been given the poison chalice of behaviour management. A lot of kids don't like it when other kids muck about and disrupt their learning. OK to learn with mobile phone, as long as the teacher has the authority to push them up to the next level. Old school Hitler types obsessed with authority, end up shouting at children all the time, don't get anywhere in long run. Not enough people have an understanding of what it means to have children socialised for learning.

Some parents will say to their children 'you don't behave, you go back to Nigeria.' Not much you can do about that. Kevin Rooney: Is the debate really about adults and their lack of confidence in bringing children up the crisis of adult authority? Mark Taylor: Very easy to blame someone else for your own problems. Eg kids are misbehaving because of drinking coke or their background Only way to do something about it is to take back responsibility. Audience member: Depressing we've even talking about the army Audience member: Mark is right. It's also about the teacher as authority of their subject. We've always had crisis dating back to middle ages, but the distinguishing characteristic of current crisis is crisis of authority. In Primary schools too much interaction in class with each other and not with teacher. Audience member: Involving the army would undermine authority of teachers. Audience member (Sally Millard): Parents feel they're the last in line... discipline and authority have collapsed everywhere else. As adults we're trying to outsource authority to some other body. Agrees with Daisy, we don't need to micromanage teachers... or parents. Kevin Rooney: Isn't this idea about the army just nonsense? Jamie Bartlett: No, parents are always supportive of it. Army are good role models, often go on humanitarian trips abroad. Daisy Christodoulou: Very arrogant to think we can't learn from other areas of life. She sees it from beauracratic point of view, dealing with a practical problem. Might not undermine teachers. Kevin Rooney: Are we settling for keeping their attention, and missing the point of knowledge transmission? Daisy Christodoulou: Any army that only focused on structure and discipline would lose. Michael Shaw [I think]: We could do with more of a checklist approach to behaviour in schools. (This is why airline pilot is one of the safest jobs around). Friend fought in Gulf War, had a horrible first year as a teacher. Why couldn't he stamp his authority? 'I don't have a gun'. Audience member: Vast majority of young troublemakers grow out of it. Socialised by society around them. But this is happening less and less. The social workers he works with are much less likely to intervene when there's a problem in the street than police or firemen less sense of solidarity in public sectory. Audience member: Of course education is an institution and can learn from others, but that's nothing to do

with education. Our only true source of authority is knowledge, and we're living in a time when knowledge is devauled. First thing would be an honest recognition of the problem rather than dumping it on parents and teachers. The fight for knowledge is a worthwhile fight. Outsourcing it will make it worse - and involves fetishisation of behaviorsation policies. It's seen as a danger that teachers might make their own judgements. Stuart Waiton: The army are a bunch of pussies too. The fetish and obsession about behaviour undermines teachers' attempts to do anything about it. Mark Taylor: Autonomy doesn't always work has been a mask for poor professinalism. Audience member (Shirley Lawes, IOI Education Forum): In a lot of academies, there's already a lot of militaristic influence. In Gove's fave academy every child and teacher stands out in line every morning whatever the weather. It's formulaic not fetishisation behaviour is clearly related to what is going on in lessons and whether children are being challenged and inspired. The reality of micro management is the formulaic lesson, which drains the life blood out of what it means to teach. Also the formulaic application of school policies which become diminished in young person's lives. Audience member: There's a lack of sense of what it is to be an adult. Leads to child-centred learning approach. Policy and process are the antithesis of judgement. Audience member: Such a strong focus on behaviour and authority betrays a lack of inspiration. The teachers you learn from are the most passionate. So much pressure on exams, no space for learning for the sake of learning, because something is interesting. Audience member (Toby Marhsall, IOI Education Forum): Teachers don't have anything to learn from other professions. The form of their authority is specific to their profession stretching minds. Need to recognise the distinctive things we do. Kevin Rooney: Is there a problem that we expect teachers to entertain now, unfairly? Michael Shaw: Very unfair on teachers to think that 'if only lesson was more engaging, everything would be ok'. Jamie Bartlett: The army here is a proxy for authority and discipline. We know children of well-off parents do better due to money and time spent with them. Doesn't think investment in Sure Start etc is patronising children. Daisy Christodoulou: She would defend the specificity of any profession... but beyond that there are so many things you can learn from other professions. Mark Taylor: This is actually happening. Proposed for a free school in Oldham.

X Factor: Simon Cowell goes to US, the judges start arguing. (Admittedly might be a set up). Authority is totally personalised now, need to get a sense of what it means in general terms for adults. Audience member (Kathryn Ecclestone): The problem of adult authority extends upwards into higher education. Lots of good students, but teachers are now evaluated by those students told to make teaching more entertaining, etc. Brilliant lecturers becoming more and more nervous of their pupils, and having to resort to flattery, etc. Audience member (Stuart Waiton): Would the panel be prepared to have hard, brutal scary teachers? Audience member: Is the problem due to a policy failure? Audience member: From a school with a cadet force. Helps you learn about teaching, you have to lead boys every Friday. You develop empathy for teachers. Discipline can feel dehumanising... culture of fear can discourage interaction and question asking. [My laptop charge ran out at this point, a few minutes before the end of the session]