deaconess no jumping here

Registered User Soul responded: You're jumping to conclusions, Deaconess. We do have

Posts: 886
Jesus as an example in our time - who said we didn't?
(1/20/03 14:38)
Reply
"Who said we didn't?" What is the ratio of the focus on Jesus as opposed to
the Chief Apostle, DA, etc.by the leaders in the U.S. and Canada? How many
times was Christ referred to in the Servants and Wives service? I would hope
focus on Jesus isn't merely considered a "given," but His example would be a
continual promotion... would you rather have a man or Jesus as your one
true example?
Edited by: deaconess at: 1/20/03 2:17:47 pm
TNII I don't see Thomas as doubting
Registered User I see him as someone who wanted to be proven wrong. I see someone who
Posts: 734
knew his weekness was his unbelief, and thus saw the avenue to defeating
(1/21/03 12:10)
Reply his unbelief, his eyes. This takes stregth and awareness of the spirit. He was
no doubter, just a struggler.

~TNII~
Shaquille jumping to conclusions; references
Registered User It seems to me that a significant purpose of the gift of the Holy Spirit is the
Posts: 26
ability to approach Christ directly. If reaching Christ is accomplished by
(1/21/03 21:20)
Reply knowing the heart of a man, then the HS has no role as counselor. God gave
us a new life via the HS, and the responsiblity of that Spirit is to instruct us
regarding the nature of Christ. I find it hard to believe that one's soul
salvation is dependant upon knowing the heart of someone who knows
Christ.

Now, is that doubting or is that the HS saying 'seek Christ directly'?

Katherine NAC-induced conundrum
Unregistered User Shaquille writes:
(1/21/03 21:50)
Reply
"Now, is that doubting or is that the HS saying 'seek Christ directly'?"

Shaquille, you may be asking a purely rhetorical question, but I can tell you
from personal experiences, these kinds of questions plagued me for many
years. It seemed as though anything that was at odds -- even if it was only
slightly -- with the NAC's teachings felt very dangerous. For me to view it as
positive felt like heresy. It was really a horrible conundrum to have the very
things that were prompting my soul to grow feel so scary. The reason for this
was that this is how I was indoctrinated in the church.

Remember the good old "sin against the Holy Ghost"? That nebulous sin that
they made just clear enough to make us believe that anything we thought
our said against the NAC could land us in eternal hot water? Sure, they said
it was "working against the church" (whatever the hell that means) but when
we'd go to them with some non-sanctioned observation or question they'd
caution us, "You need to put those doubts down and believe, since you know
what the consequences are...." Of course we knew, because that's how we'd
been indoctrinated.

So yes, the idea that the Holy Spirit could be leading you away from the idea
of men as necessary intermediaries would seem very scary. It would be
suspicious; you'd be inclined to think that it was any spirit BUT the Holy one!
Instead of seeing this as the HS leading you closer to Christ, you'd see it as
the devil leading you away from the NAC! I know; I've been there!

The most amazing breakthrough happened for me while reading a book

called, "So You Think You're not Religious?" I won't quote the section again,
 but essentially, it talks about the "sin against the HS" and what Jesus meant
when he said that. In the interpretation of mainstream Christians, Jesus was
saying that if you do not listen and pay attention to what is going on within
and around you, even the Lord God in heaven can't help. In other words, the
Holy Spirit is what prompts you to make those observations and ask those
questions, and Jesus is saying you'd better pay attention to that!

That is quite a different view of this "sin". Instead of telling us to squelch our
observations because they cause us to question the NAC, Jesus is telling us
to PAY ATTENTION! When I finally understood this, it became much easier for
me to answer questions like the one you raise honestly and confidently. I am
convinced that it is the second, rather than the first option, and most
Christians would agree with that assessment. That's because Christianity is a
faith based on the courage we have because of Christ's sacrifice, not on
intimidation and fear.
ybg No good suggestions
Unregistered User The ecumenical, feminist and liberal ideas Shaquille comes up with are the
(1/22/03 9:02)
LEAST the NAC needs, actually NAC's non-mainstream, non-feminist, non-
Reply
conformist and non-ecumenical positions are among the few GOOD things in
the NAC.
JFGNJ To Shaquille
Registered User "I find it hard to believe that one's soul salvation is dependant upon knowing
Posts: 117
the heart of someone who knows Christ."
(1/22/03 10:24)
Reply
You are absolutely right and this has never been said that ones soul salvation
is dependent upon that. What has been said is that the unity of the body of
Christ relies on the oneness that the DAp. speaks of.
Shaquille JFGNJ Response
Registered User Respectfully JFGNJ, I think you are arguing semantics. What is the purpose
Posts: 27
of unity in the body of Christ but to bring the Bride to completion? The
(1/22/03 13:36)
Reply oneness taught is being expressed as nothing less that the key to our
spiritual growth, the means to knowing Christ.

And I must differ on the notion that unity in the body of Christ is best gained
by knowing the heart of a higher office. Each person must study the nature
of Christ, via scripture, service, and conversation with the HS. When two
members or ministers are united to Christ, there is a oneness through Christ.
The oneness between these two comes not in knowing each other's heart,
but in each person knowing Christ's heart. It that were the focus, and
secondarily that we should develop a closeness with our fellow ministers in
the fellowship of Christ, I would have no problem with the teaching.
dlcntm Holy Spirit prompts directness to Christ
Registered User Shaquille,
Posts: 199
(1/22/03 14:13)
Reply All I can say to your posts is AMEN.

dlcntm
Black Salamander Re: Holy Spirit prompts directness to Christ
Registered User Nothing is produced by one single cause; the combination of several causes
Posts: 523
is always necessary to bring about a result. The seed without the co-
(1/22/03 22:23)
Reply operation of earth, dampness, light, etc. will never become a tree. So, we
will never reach God by knowing the heart of a "teacher/BoB" ONLY. -
Assuming we are fortunate enough to find such a one of course.

JFGNJ knowing God

Registered User Just as we can never reach God just by reading the bible
Posts: 118
(1/23/03 10:10)
Reply
Re: knowing God
Just as we can never reach God without reading the bible

JF ez
Registered User
Posts: 1456
(1/23/03 10:12)
Reply | Edit
Katherine NAC Hyperbole
Unregistered User "Just as we can never reach God just by reading the bible"
(1/23/03 21:12)
Reply
Oh, boy, do I remember this one! This was regurtitated regularly to show
how the NAC is the "real" church, while the rest of Christianity sits back and
thinks reading the Bible is enough!

JFGNJ, you obviously don't know much about Christianity.

The whole experience of being a Christian prompts a person to willingly and

freely associate with other Christians in churches, Bible study groups and so
on. A person who truly understands Christ's message cannot just stay at
home and read the Bible, because that is the opposite of what Jesus prompts
him/her to do. Rather than attend a church out of fear that if one doesn't go,
there will be trouble, the person attends because it feels like the most
natural thing in the world to his/her soul.

The idea that there are large numbers of believing Christians who sit at home
and read the Bible is an example of the hyperbole used by the NAC to shore
up its "3x a week or else" position!

On the other hand, if a person does spend more time studying the Bible than
attending church, but truly is changed by that study and lives a Christian life,
who the heck is the NAC to judge that? I saw many examples of faithful
church goers in the NAC, who demonstrated no evidence of a Christian heart.

If you ask me, it's better to understand the Bible and apply it than go
through a ritual every week, thinking that sacraments or specific words said
over a specific altar will save you and not apply it....

Then again, as Jeffrey says, I believe the Bible is a LIVING word, not a "dead
letter"....
JFGNJ to JF and Katherine
Registered User JF
Posts: 121
So according to your logic no one could reach God prior to 400AD when the
(1/24/03 7:57)
Reply bible was complied

Thats sounds as foolish as no one being saved between the death of John
and 1832.

Katherine,

JFGNJ, you obviously don't know much about Christianity.

 I actually know quite a bit about Christianity I just dont beleive the way you
do

You also are adding your own interpretation to my rather simple statement.

Maybe I should have inserted one word into my statement

"Just as we can never reach God by ONLY reading the bible"

Fact is that reading the bible is a work and since mainstream christianity
doesnt beleive that man is saved through works (ies baptism) one cannot be
saved by reading the bible. The bible doesnt save Jesus does!

Jeffrey
Unregistered User Dead or Alive?
(1/24/03 18:46) " For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than two-edged
Reply sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and
marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."-
Hebrews 4:12

What did Jesus use to fight the temptation in the desert? The word of God!
What is the weapon of our warfare in Ephesians, the sword of the Spirit
which is the word of God! Why? Beacause it is living and active!
NOT A DEAD LETTER!!!!!!!!!
Soul
Unregistered User Scriptures
(1/24/03 22:13) You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and
Reply these are they which testify of Me.
John 5:39

The Jewish leaders studied Scripture in minute detail. Despite their reverence
for the very letter of Scripture, they did not recognize the one to whom
Scripture bears supreme testimony.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not

lose heart....For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and
ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 2 Corinthians 4:1, 5

When God through his mercy calls and commissions his servants, he also
supplies the strength necessary for them to persevere in the fact of
hardships and persecutions.

Now then, we are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were

making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be
reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

We give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed. But in
all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God; in much patience, in
tribulations, in needs, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults,
in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; by purity, by knowledge,by
longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, by the word of
truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand
and on the left... 2 Corinthians 6:3-7
 2 Corinthians was written by Paul to the Corinthian church. This church had
been infiltrated by false teachers who were challenging both Paul's personal
integrity and his authority as an apostle. Paul asks the Corinthians to
consider that his personal life in their midst was always honorable and that
his life-transforming message of salvation was true.

We learn so much from Scripture. Although it is not a complete report of all

the works of God, what is important for us has been preserved. We must
have an eagerness to learn, long for divine enlightenment, ascertain proper
interpretation and understanding of the divine truths.

That is what is taught in my church about the importance of the Bible on my

walk of Christian faith. What is taught in yours?

ONE opinion checking in......Soul

Katherine Bible reading

Unregistered User JFGNJ writes to JF:
(1/24/03 23:37)
"So according to your logic no one could reach God prior to 400AD when the
Reply
bible was complied. Thats sounds as foolish as no one being saved between
the death of John and 1832."

According to the NAC's logic, that second statement is the case. Do you
disagree with the NAC on this one? Or do you subscribe to the recently
revealed "Holy Spirit Drive By" theory, in which the HS allegedly made cameo
appearances between John (when the Spirit "officially" was no longer
available) and 1832 (when the Spirit was re-established in one of the NAC's
predecessor churches from which it broke off).

"I actually know quite a bit about Christianity I just dont beleive the way you
do"

What I was saying, JFGNG, is that you didn't seem to know much about what
mainstream Christians actually practice, i.e., most Christians do not ONLY sit
at home and read the Bible. They participate in churches, Bible studies,
outreach and so on, because it is a natural outgrowth of their faith.

"Fact is that reading the bible is a work and since mainstream christianity
doesnt beleive that man is saved through works (ies baptism) one cannot be
saved by reading the bible. The bible doesnt save Jesus does!"

Reading the Bible is a "work"? I don't think so, and I don't think Christians
consider it that way. "Works" are considered works of outreach to others in
Christian compassion, so reading the Bible isn't considered "doing good
works". "Good works" are done for others; reading the Bible is done for
oneself. It is a good thing to do for oneself, but it isn't considered a work. If
you want evidence, look at the Catholic church, which has traditionally
emphasized the importance of good works as part of faith -- yet their
members have traditionally not been encouraged to read the Bible. Most
Catholics are not literate when it comes to the Bible as they have been
taught to rely on their clergy to do it for them.

Also, Baptism has never been considered a "work", but a sacrament -- a gift
from God, a public proclamation of faith and a public welcome into the Body
of Christ.
 The Bible does save in the sense that it can lead someone to Jesus. If a
person is really moved by what they have read, and invites Jesus into their
lives, that person most certainly is saved, and church-going, outreach and
Bible study naturally follow.
Black Salamander Re: Bible reading
Registered User "If a person is really moved by what they have read, and invites Jesus into
Posts: 533
their lives, that person most certainly is saved...".
(1/26/03 7:07)
Reply
Katherine,

Is it possible that such a person can make themselves "unsaved" again?

If it IS possible, then there's an inferance that I can be "saved" for a period

of time. ie Only untill I slide back into the ways which are contrary to the will
of God or the teachings of His Son.

If I am busy drowning in a pond and someone manages to get a rope out to

me, have I, at that moment, been saved or have I been saved once I reach
dry land? I suppose my question is; can any of us claim to be saved while we
are still part of all that happens here on this planet? I can invite Jesus Christ
into my heart tonight and show Him the door again in the morning. Can a
person be "saved" on Monday and end up being "not saved" on Tuesday?
This is not confrontational. Please explain to me what you mean because I do
not understand the concept.

Edited by: Black Salamander at: 1/26/03 6:09:04 am

understand the concept

Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those

who commit adultery with her into great
affliction, unless they repent of their deeds.
JF ez Revelation 2:22
Registered User
Posts: 1472
(1/26/03 8:50)
Reply | Edit A bed of sickness in contrast with the bed of adultery. Sickness and a bed are
symbols of affliction and punishment.

This is the term applied to idolatrous Israel (Jer 3:9 Eze 16:32). To practice
the idolatrous rites of this faction would be spiritual adultery.

There seems to be an allusion in this verse to Ahaziah and Joram, sons of

Ahab and Jezebel, who followed their mother’s idolatrous practices, and were
cast upon a bed of sickness, 2Ki 1:2 8:29. But Jezebel was chiefly
responsible.

Even when the Lord knows the works of his people to be wrought in love,
faith, zeal, and patience; yet if his eyes, which are as a flame of fire, observe
them committing or allowing what is evil, he will rebuke, correct, or punish
them.

Here is praise of the ministry and people of Thyatira, by One who knew the
principles from which they acted. They grew wiser and better. All Christians
should earnestly desire that their last works may be their best works.
 Yet this church connived at some wicked seducers. God is known by the
judgments he executes; and by this upon seducers, he shows his certain
knowledge of the hearts of men, of their principles, designs, frame, and
temper.

Encouragement is given to those who kept themselves pure and undefiled.

Katherine Bible Reading
Registered User Hi, Black Salamander,
Posts: 2
(1/26/03 16:00)
Reply Sorry for the confusion. I was not using 'saved' in the evangelical sense --
since I am not an evangelical!

I personally do not believe we can earn God's favor or that we become

"saved" in a conditional way. What I meant to say is that if a person casually
picks up the Bible and starts reading, and through that learns about Christ
and experiences a personal transformation, that the person definitely has
come to faith by "just reading the Bible". That, to me, is a MAJOR thing!
What I was taking issue with was the idea that "just reading the Bible" is of
limited value.

Personally, I believe God loves each and every one of us unconditionally and
we bring consequences on ourselves by our actions, or things simply happen
because we live in a broken world. I do not subscribe to the "working to earn
God's love" philosophy. We already have it. If we know that, we
automatically adjust our lives to reflect that belief, e.g., we become more
concerned about others, we become less judgmental, and so on -- because
that is what our faith leads us to do, not the other way around.

"Is it possible that such a person can make themselves "unsaved" again?"

Like I said, BS, I don't believe in the concept of "saved" vs. "unsaved". If one
were to believe this, then all faithful Jews are unsaved. I have a neighbor
who is an Orthodox Jew. He lived through the Holocaust in a concentration
camp and experienced the worst kind of brutality. The man's faith is
absolutely amazing to me. He is an example for me of how one's faith can
remain strong even in the face of extreme adversity. For me to say that this
man is "unsaved" is not only illogical, it is the height of arrogance. If
anything, I'd consider this man's attitude and faith to be shining examples to
a lot of the Jerry Falwell types who point fingers rather than exercise
forgiveness and love.

I hope I'm not being too confusing here. I guess what I'm trying to say is
that I believe that all who seek God will be met by him. My neighbor's
experience validates that for me. That, to me, is being "saved", since it is the
beginning of a new life. If one is led to that new life by reading the Bible,
that is significant, and it is contrary to what the NAC has traditionally said
about Bible reading.
Black Salamander Re: understand the concept
Registered User "Even when the Lord knows the works of his people to be wrought in love,
Posts: 534
faith, zeal, and patience; yet if his eyes, which are as a flame of fire, observe
(1/26/03 16:43)
Reply them committing or allowing what is evil, he will rebuke, correct, or punish
them".

JF,

"be saved" vs "become saved".

My reasoning says; Become saved.

 ie through the merits of Jesus Christ I "can become" saved.

Black Salamander Re: Bible Reading

Registered User Thanks Katherine,
Posts: 535
(1/26/03 17:36)
Reply I understand a little better where you are coming from.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

deaconess getting back to the topic of reform...

Registered User from a post by OuterStar 12/01/02:
Posts: 918
(1/27/03 9:07)
Reply BEHIND the 8-BALL

You can learn a lot just by paying attention to the perspective of visitors to a
church.

1. Will they experience warm hospitality?

2. Will they receive a tangible sense of the presence of God?

Only 15 % of American congregations of all Christian denominations have

grown by even 1 % in the last 5 years. There are many demographic
explanations for this, of course. But, it is also true that some congregations
do not know how to grow or, even, do not WANT to grow!

Christopher A. Schwartz, founder of the Institute for National Church

Development, surveyed 1,000 congregations in 32 countries. He concluded
that growing congregations share 8 common characteristics.

1. leaders who empowwer others to accomplish ministerial tasks and

functions

2. ministry tasks are distributed according to the gifts of the members

3. A passionate spirituality marked by prayer and putting faith into practice

4. organizational structures that promote ministry

5. inspiring worship services

6. small groups in which the living and healing power of fellowship is

experienced

7. need-oriented evangelism that meets the needs of people the church is

trying to reach

8. loving relationships among the members of the church

deaconess Automatism
Registered User This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground.
Posts: 919
Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts, and grows,
(1/27/03 9:36)
Reply though he does not know how. All by itself the soil produces grain -- first the
stalk, then the head, and then the full kernel in the head. As soon as the
grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come. Mark
 4:26-29

C.A. Schwartz in his book, The ABC's of Natural Church Growth , points
out the following about the above parable: This parable shows explicitly what
people can and should do, and what they cannot do. They should sow and
harvest; they may sleep and rise. What they cannot do, however, is this:
they cannot bring forth the fruit. In the text we find the mysterious
description of the earth producing fruit "all by itself."
JFGNJ to deaconess
Registered User would it be possible to get a copy of that book its one of the few I have never
Posts: 124
seen or possibly get Brenda to post it on the boards home page?
(1/27/03 15:25)
Reply
deaconess book store
Registered User Hi, JFGNJ
Posts: 920
(1/27/03 16:27)
Reply I obtained the booklet 5 years ago in a Christian Bookstore. I'm not sure if
it's still available, but here are the "vitals":

The ABC's of Natural Church Development

by Christian A. Schwarz

Copyright 1998
ISBN 1-889638-04-8

The following info. may be out of date:

ChurchSmart Resources
Carol Stream, IL 60188
1-800-253-4276

Additional books that were also available:

Natural Church Development
Implementation Guide to Natural Church Development
Natural Church Development Survey
Releasing Your Church's Potential (Resource Kit)
BrendaP Re: book store
Administrator I found a site. If you're in Canada you can get a free copy of the booklet :
Posts: 1836
(1/27/03 16:35)
www.gospelcom.net/growing...ng2001.htm
Reply

Perhaps that site will be of interest to our Canadian BOBs

"Who Should Receive Training?

Primarily denominational leaders, pastors keenly interested in the NCD

process, and individuals prominent in the field of church consulting. We so
clearly understand the unique character of this opportunity, that we are
strategically inviting only those whose attendance will impact churches
throughout whole denominations. We are convinced that, when training
happens in partnership with denominational leadership, and these leaders
then coach their churches, the most effective ministry will occur. Our goal is
to empower these coaches in the field of Natural Church Development."

Brenda
Reader Food for thought
Unregistered User www.newlifeministries-nlm...waters.htm
(1/30/03 4:25)
Reply
The eight qualities Schwarz uses to define healthy churches are :
 1. Empowering leadership—leaders focus on equipping and training other
Christians to do ministry; leaders are committed wholly to church growth.

2. Gift-oriented ministry—ministry tasks are distributed according to the

spiritual gifts of the people; nearly every Christian is using his/her God-given
gifts to build up the church.

3. Passionate spirituality—the spiritual lives of the church members are

characterized by prayer, enthusiasm, and boldness; most members live out
their faith with power and contagious enthusiasm.

4. Functional structures—the forms, practices, and structures of the

church are designed to most effectively accomplish ministry in this time and
place (form follows function); church structures are evaluated as to whether
or not they contribute to the growth of the church.

5. Inspiring worship service—attending worship services is inspiring and

uplifting to those who attend; worship is a high point of the week for the
majority of the congregation.

6. Holistic small groups—there is a continuous multiplication of small

groups that meet the real needs of people; the loving and healing power of
fellowship is experienced in these groups.

7. Need-oriented evangelism—evangelistic activities relate directly to the

needs of the people the church is trying to reach; nearly all Christians use
their spiritual gifts to help fulfill the Great Commission.

8. Loving relationships—relationships among the members of the church

are characterized by a high level of loving affection; Christ's love permeates
nearly all church activities.

Eight qualities from Schwarz

Unregistered User I like these 8 qualities from Schwarz ! Excellent !!!
(2/11/03 12:11)
Reply
Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC
Unregistered User Shaquille, Board --
(2/16/03 2:06)
Reply
Very Good Points. I hope that most, if not all, of these points make it into
your final draft !!!!

EXCELLENT !!!

Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC

SIX ESSENTIAL REFORMS NECESSARY TO THE LONG TERM VIABILITY OF

THE NEW APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

The following is, for lack of a better term, a “position paper” of six
substantial reforms I believe are necessary in the NAC of North America.
Because this entire statement is lengthy, it is broken into several posts. This
post will set forth six reforms with a one paragraph summary of arguments
and anticipated benefits. Each proposed reform with expanded discussion will
be a separate post, put up over the next few days, allowing the reader to
focus on those statements and issues of greatest interest. For the fullest
discussion and debate, readers are encouraged to read each post in their
entirely as they go up.

The views and opinions are strictly the author’s, and are not intended to
imply any official position of the church.

1. The NAC should clearly and unambiguously abandon the position

of exclusivity. Summary: There is ample evidence of the activity of the Holy
Spirit outside of the NAC to conclude that exclusivity is not viable. The
church’s position remains ambiguous. By clearly renouncing exclusivity, the
church can effectively participate in the ecumenical movement alive in the
rest of Christianity. Further, it will compel the church to be more responsive
to the membership, because members will know they have alternatives.

2. Effectively implement Christ-centered teaching. Summary: The

notion of seeking Christ through a close connection with a “blessing bearer”
misleads the children of God and opens the church to the criticism that man
is being placed before Christ. Rules and procedures without spiritual basis
detract from the pure teaching of Christ, cause unnecessary offense, and are
ineffective in bringing the members to a Christ-like nature. The church must
be an expression of Christ and lead all congregants directly to him. Benefits
from this change are greater spirituality among members and ministers, and
less defections among believers turned off by non-spiritual rules.

3. Bring women into the ministry and church administration.

Summary: Women are the most underutilized resource in the NAC. There are
many qualified sisters that meet the criteria of a good minister, and should
not be overlooked due to gender. Equality for women is a key concept in
Western society and implementation is long overdue in the church. This can
only be accomplished by the ordination of women into the ministry. The
benefits from such a change are a fresh pool of talent brought to the
ministry, and a church structure more reflective of the society in which it
operates.

4. Reduce reliance on a lay-ministry and introduce professional

ministers with seminary training. Summary: The problem of a lay-
ministry is that there are insufficient resources to do the work effectively.
The brother with a full-time job will be unable to provide the time necessary
to get the job done effectively. Further, the lack of a seminary education
leaves the church unable to participate in the ecumenical movements
sweeping Christianity today, or to articulate with authority church positions
on doctrine. A professional, seminary-trained ministry will have the time and
possess the abilities necessary to further the work in the congregations, and
to reach out to the rest of Christianity.

5. Reorganize the national administration so that the Synod is truly

representative of the members, and institute local autonomy.
Summary: The Church is not responsive to the members because successive
leaders are selected by those in authority, without input from the
membership. This stifles new ideas and change in policy, and fosters
nepotism. Leaders should be selected by the members, and those leaders
participate in a truly representative Synod with authority to debate policy
and implement changes. This will make the national leadership responsive to
the members and tolerant of local autonomy.

6. Open all church financial books and records. Summary: American

culture expects full disclosure in its institutions. Disclosure would increase
confidence and accountability in the church administration. The members are
the church, and should rightfully know how their offerings are spent and
 have input into those decisions. The benefits of accountability and
participation will outweigh the negatives of sometimes unwarranted criticism
by a few.

See further posts over the next few days expanding each point.

Unregistered User We need to fix the problem before trying to expand the work!
(2/16/03 3:32) Just a reminder !!!
Reply
Observer commented in another thread dealing with the 30,000... that
before we get 30,000... maybe we otta fix the problem... (what's wrong) !!

We need to fix the problem before trying to expand the work!!

A few weeks ago Herb Stroh chimed in on the "Picture This" thread and made
a few statements that I think are worthy of inclusion on this thread also.

We need to fix the problem before trying to expand the work. If we

do not focus on Christ, the greatest plan that brings in multitudes of
people is useless because we will not be able to KEEP those souls in
the church. This philosophical problem of reaching Christ through the
CA rather than seeking Christ directly will forever limit the ability of
this church to reach out to the general community. Until that is
addressed, we are dead in the water.

We need to fix the problem

But if not...
• I will come to you quickly.
• I will remove your lampstand out of its place.
• I will fight with them by the sword of My mouth.
• I will kill her children with death.
JF ez
Registered User • I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will
Posts: 1626 come upon you.
(2/16/03 5:07) • I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Reply | Edit

Black Salamander
Registered User Re: We need to fix the problem
Posts: 557 Night Club down the road has 2 huge Bouncers stationed at the entrance.
(2/16/03 5:37) THEY say who is qualified to enter and who is not. Interesting. If they refuse
Reply
me entry, all the money in my wallet means squat. "We need to fix the
problem..." - imo the problem is not the door but rather those in authority of
the door. Depending on my needs as a keeper of the door, I can choose to
either use or abuse the authority given to me. Abuse it and loose being a
lampstand.

deaconess45 INPUT
Registered User It's disappointing that the NAC Administration does not recognize the value in
Posts: 28
soliciting ideas from it's members, evidenced by their recent exclusion of
(2/20/03 11:03)
Reply members participating in the forums or offering suggestions in some other
manner. I feel the church is missing the boat in regards to drawing upon the
rank and file members for their ideas. Members in any volunteer organization
that have "ownership" in a particular program, by helping in it's creation, will
support it more than those whose input is ignored or not even requested.
Why haven't suggestion boxes been put in the foyers asking for members'
ideas? Doesn't the new "master plan" rely on members' involvement in the
implementation of the plan? Will they not be expected to spread the word
 and invite? It's odd that the very ones who will determine the success aren't
even consulted.

When I suggested this to an AB recently, his reply was that the church is
focusing on input from the AB's & Wives because they are the workers. I beg
to differ on this... All studies tend to reflect that the primary reason someone
attends a new church is through personal invitation. When's the last time a
"District Elder" in your area brought a guest?
Author Comment
dlcntm Sorry to Reiterate
Registered User After reading Deaconess' post above, I couldn't help myself. I said this on a
Posts: 223
different thread but there were so many reply's at the time it was posted, it
(2/20/03 21:20)
Reply seemed to get overlooked.

Forgive if you read it and didn't find it pertinent but after reading the above
post, I thought the same thoughts again. Sometimes, it feels like those
willing to work on this project are, in number, no bigger than the cat. There
are few workers left and of those who are involved and willing, many of them
are disgruntled by the load of stuff in our cart that we can't agree with
anymore. And our thoughts and input on how to best move along are not
being sought. It's how I see it anyway. So, again:

There's a story I heard this mornning. A person wanted to move into a new
direction. Loaded all of their belongings on a huge cart and strapped a little
cat in the front by harness to pull the huge cart...Somebody observing said:
How do you propose to get that little cat to pull that huge cart? The person
answered, simple, I have a whip.....

The new ideas of finding these 30,000 lights is a pipedream unless we can
come up with a better plan than that of the cat. I looked on the official site of
the NAC board. There is a new letter displayed there from the DA Fruend. It
speaks of seminars on how to invite guests and attain this goal of 30,000
lights. We need to open the hearts, minds and traditional thinking of this
church OR "foget about it".

dlcntm
NY GIRL
Registered User 30,000 Lights
Posts: 45 dlcntm mentioned the letter from DA Freund on the church's official site. It
(2/20/03 23:34) seems to me that there is a huge PR campaign going on - "How to attract
Reply
new membership" - What about the spiritual needs of the existing
membership? We are all being asked to help out to gain these 30,000
members, while at the same time, the higher ups seem to be distancing
themselves from us. It creates the feeling of 'us' and 'them'.

Sometimes I wonder if they truly care about the members or just want to
keep the church organization afloat. Just doesn't feel right...
Edited by: NY GIRL at: 2/21/03 2:41:54 pm
Jeffrey
Unregistered User Don't wonder too long
(2/26/03 16:47) HJi NY Girl,
Reply
Seems you know the answer.
Black Salamander
Registered User Re: Don't wonder too long
Posts: 582
(2/28/03 5:20)
Reply
Jeffrey??!!
 Are you still around after the CA thread??!!

Jeffrey
Unregistered User to BS
(2/28/03 11:33) Yes BS
Reply

Unregistered User 30,000 Lights

(3/2/03 18:06) Here is the Letter from the District Apostle Freund concerning the Chief
Reply Apostle Fehr December 2002 visit to New York, USA and the 30,000 Lights...

==========================

My very dear Brothers and Sisters,

We have all experienced a very special holiday season and close of the year
2002, the high point of which was the visit of our Chief Apostle and that
which he laid into our souls. All the ministers and wives participated in our
beginning-of-the-year meeting, which was transmitted from Los Angeles on
January 12.

As you all heard, our Chief Apostle expressed the wish and desire that the
number of souls in our district in North America, the United Kingdom and
Ireland be increased by 30,000. Ever since he mentioned this, the Apostles
and I have occupied ourselves with how this could be accomplished.

You, our faithful, loyal members, have built up this work and supported it for
many, many years. The ministers and I certainly cannot hope to achieve the
goal of fulfilling our Chief Apostle’s wish without your help and support.

Our Chief Apostle gave us the key to success. It begins with his statement
that we must live our faith more and be a testimony for God’s work.

Every child of God can do this. Jesus expressed it so nicely in Luke 11:33,
“No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket,
but on a lamp-stand, that those who come in may see the light.” Our Chief
Apostle said that what moved his heart most was what he felt in the souls of
the brothers and sisters whom he served during the time he spent in our
district. We want this “radiation of the soul” to take place, not just on special
occasions, but as our way of life so that God may permit longing souls also to
feel it.

The prophet, Amos, already spoke about the time in which we live: “’Behold,
the days are coming,’ says the Lord God, ‘That I will send a famine on the
land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words
of the Lord’” (Amos 8:11).

This is our opportunity to offer and share with others what our Heavenly
Father makes available. It is so precious and special that, if it lives in us, it
will attract others. However, we also need tools with which to work.
Therefore, we have planned some seminars to assist us in this great
undertaking. Within the next few months, several seminars will be held for
the ministers, and a seminar is being prepared for us, the members, on
inviting and caring for guests. Materials will also be printed and assembled to
assist us in this great endeavor.
 May I ask all of you to be so kind as to remember this daily in your prayers
and to keep the zeal for this work alive in your hearts, family circles and
congregations? Our Heavenly Father is always ready to add His blessing to
that which is done with love and sincerity.

With greetings of love from our Chief Apostle and the promise of his prayers,
in which I gladly join, I am

Yours,

Richard C. Freund

=====================

BrendaP From the interview with DA Kitching

Unregistered User "The church has especially in the last few years established work groups
(3/6/03 15:37)
which amongst others are also investigating certain aspects of the Bible. This
Reply
has resulted in certain adjustments in our way of thinking and will continue
on an on-going basis. Looking at the findings of others is never a bad thing."

Brenda

DA Freund's letter
Unregistered User "“No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket,
(3/7/03 8:09) but on a lamp-stand, that those who come in may see the light.”"
Reply
******************************************

Have you been hiding your lamp? If so, why?

Shaquille Work Groups
Registered User I keep hearing about these "work groups", but why the secrecy? As I recall,
Posts: 54
Brenda posed some Q's to Peter requesting information about the groups,
(3/7/03 15:00)
Reply but was rebuffed. Apparently DA Kitching has work groups--are other DA's
doing the same thing? What issues are being investigated? Why cannot the
membership have some input into the issues being discussed?

If someone has a ministers meeting coming up, perhaps you could raise this
issue: Does our area have "work groups" in process, what is being studied,
and can the general ministers/members have an opportunity for input?
deaconess Projections and Groupies
Registered User From the March 2003 Our Family:
Posts: 1003
(3/7/03 19:52)
Reply Project Groups
Book: All about the NAC
Choir Literature
The New Apostolic Faith
Contemporary Questions
Hymn Book
Questions of Faith
Youth Care
Teaching Aids/Children
Children and Music
Membership Date/Administration
Music
Revelation
Ecumenism
 Instruction to the Ministers
Copyright
Science and Faith

Work Groups
Advisory Experts/Music
History of the NAC
Doctrine and Knowledge
Word of Life
Medicine
Public Relations Work Europe

Expert Groups
Civil Service Law/FRG
District Churches in Germany

I'm not finding a listing forthe Women's Role in the Church Project Group that
the DA Freund referred to in substantiating putting a hold on the women's
greeting program until there is an official finding..... ??????

maybe...
Unregistered User I'm not finding a listing forthe Women's Role in the Church Project Group
(3/7/03 21:37) that the DA Freund referred to in substantiating putting a hold on the
Reply
women's greeting program until there is an official finding..... ??????

Maybe Richard Freund put a hold on the women's greeting program because
he himself had a problem with it and used the "Project Group" story as an
excuse.
myule exclusitivity
Unregistered User
(3/14/03 22:33)
Reply shall we now believe all except DA Freund

KarlN re:exclusitivity
Unregistered User Oh Myule, here's a site I made for you:
(3/15/03 3:51)
Reply
www.Myule.youaremyfriend.com
myule friend
Unregistered User
(3/15/03 4:11)
said the spider to the fly.
Reply

no thanks
ByGraceAlone Re: friend
Registered User LOL that was really funny Karl!
Posts: 80
(3/15/03 11:10)
Reply ~JJD~
WildWildWest The Power of Words
Registered User And the Academy Award for best short film goes to....
Posts: 177
(3/15/03 12:19)
Reply KarlN!*

*Update as of 10:44 PM, 3/15/03: Mr. KarlN's Academy Award was

withdrawn when it was discovered that he didn't actually produce or direct or
in any other way create the youaremyfriend application (other than typing
the name in front of .youaremyfriend.com

Mr. KarlN does get mention for distributing the aforementioned application to
 unknowing NACBOARD participants (it is pretty cool!)
Edited by: WildWildWest at: 3/15/03 10:47:44 pm

Unregistered User THE HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE CHURCHES

(3/27/03 1:12) Shaquille, Board- I would like to share something with you that I recieved
Reply from a friend via an E-Mail Word Document... Let me know what you think...
:-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**THE HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE CHURCHES – A Summary
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Highly effective churches are defined as growth rate per year of 15%

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*INTRODUCTION*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---------------------------------
-- Six Pillars of Effectiveness:
---------------------------------

Ø They are very aspects that characterized the Early Church

1. Worship

2. Evangelism

3. Christian

4. Education

5. Community among the believers

6. Stewardship and Serving the needy

---------------------------
-- Harmful Habits
---------------------------

Ø Expecting the pastor’s spouse to be the catchall

Ø Requiring the pastor to be the chief fund-raiser for the church

Ø Assuming that community is fostered in a handshake

Ø Maintaining church classes or programs because of internal politics or

history

--------------------------
-- Beneficial Habits
--------------------------
Ø Rely upon strategic leadership

Ø Organize to facilitate highly effective ministry

Ø Emphasize developing significant relationships within the congregation

Ø Congregants invest themselves in genuine worship

Ø Engage in strategic evangelism

Ø Get people involved in systematic theological growth

Ø Serve the needy people in the community

Ø Equip families to minister to themselves

========================
========================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 1 – Ensuring that Leaders Direct the Church
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----------------------------------------
-- Leaders can possess these qualities
-----------------------------------------

Ø A vision of what they seek to create;

Ø A respect-based relationship with a team of competent colleagues;

Ø Effective communication skills;

Ø A strategic mind and purposeful courage;

Ø An unquenchable passion about the outcome to which they are committed.

In other words, to be an effective leader you need not win the preaching
award, nor must you be a great manager of the ministry, or a wise counsellor
of parishioners who have emotional problems. Such abilities are often
counterproductive for a true leader. A great leader is more likely to delegate
preaching, administration, counselling, fundraising, evangelism and program
development.

Ø In recent years I have observed that most churches confuse superb

preaching with effective leadership. The ability to differentiate between these
two elements is perhaps the simplest way of distinguishing effective churches
from educational churches.

----------------------------------------
-- Job Description for a leader/pastor
----------------------------------------

Ø They acknowledge that leading a church is a full-time job

Ø The leader/pastor is the primary change driver in the congregation

Ø Congregations that are not effective are often paralyzed by pastors who
retain control over virtually every decision. This behaviour signals their
failure to master one of the key arts of leadership: delegation

Ø A leader who focuses only on numbers will likely fail the review because
the factors that produce depth in ministry (true spiritual health) are
overlooked in favour of breadth (numbers of people attending, variety in
programs)

========================
========================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 2 – Structuring the Church for Impact
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ø Highly effective churches cannot be agencies of transformation unless they

are structured to facilitate effectiveness

------------------------------
-- Participation Matters!
------------------------------

Ø A common strategy of these congregations is to identify people visiting the

church for the first time and to inform them that the church will prove to be
beneficial only if they are willing to get involved right away

Ø These churches have developed ways of softening the pitch and identifying
non-threatening means of involvement

Ø They communicate this message through the written materials given to the
visitors regarding the church as well as through the conversations that
visitors have with the church representatives

Ø A related strategy for promoting constant ministry involvement is to

decentralize the decision-making process. One of the most amazing
revelations from the research was that in the typical church, the pastor is
intimately involved in most, if not all, of the ministry’s decisions. (Yes,
control is a major problem in the typical American church.) In the highly
effective churches, however, the leader/pastor has the final say on all the
major ministry decisions, but is literally uninvolved in the vast majority if
decisions made in the ministry

Ø “If I have done my job properly, then there are many people in the
congregation who are capable of providing leadership that is consistent with
our vision and values…..”

--------------------------------------
-- Factors involved in accomplishing minimum
staff/maximum-ministry
--------------------------------------

Ø The standard of expectation is raised

Ø Opportunities for laziness and dependence are removed

Ø Adequate training is provided for volunteers

Ø Highly effective churches can take this bold approach to change because
they have decentralized, delegated, released control and empowered the
people for what they can do

Ø Clearly, one of the lessons is that attracting large numbers of people to a

church is not hard to do. Getting them to come back is something else.

Ø That is precisely why highly effective churches strive to have an annual

growth rate of no more than 15%, too much growth is uncontrollable.

--------------------------------
-- Demand Accountability
--------------------------------

Ø No organization becomes and remains successful unless it constantly

scrutinizes its own performance. Continual self-examination is a hallmark of
highly effective churches

----------------------------------
--There have been four factors that stand out as critical to making
accountability work:
----------------------------------

Ø First, the leader/pastor must be a relentless champion of accountability

Ø Second, the criteria used for evaluation are of paramount importance.

None of the highly effective churches relied solely upon the typical standards
such as attendance, membership, budget, number of compliments on the
sermon. Churches created unique ways of measuring change. In order to
determine change in people’s lives these churches rely upon honest
relationships as the means of collecting the information needed to arrive at
the judgment about the state of the church

Ø Third, accountability is not a closed-ended, once-a-year process that can

be completed in a two-week period of energetic self-examination. The highly
effective churches constantly reflect on their status and progress and
perpetually strive to improve.

Ø Fourth, when deficiencies of shortcomings are discovered, the leaders are

completely committed to making changes that will facilitate effective
ministry. How do these churches get their people to willingly embrace
change? Many congregants are motivated by watching their leaders model
such behaviour . Others are encouraged to take bold steps because the
church has reinforces the value of self-examination and the role of change in
growth.

=============================
=============================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 3 – Building Lasting, Significant Relationships
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ø The current theme throughout the history of the church is that of creating
a loving, caring community.

--------------------------------------
-- Developing a Relational Philosophy:
--------------------------------------

Ø “…For years my personal focus as a pastor was to make sure people

understood Christianity. My energy was devoted to me sermons, and in
meeting with church leader I was the champion of Christian education. Over
time I realized that what I had created was a group of sinners with head
knowledge. I’m not knocking the Bible knowledge- that’s very important. But
over the last decade my philosophy has changed dramatically. Today, I’m
more concerned about who we are than about what we know. And the best
way for us to become the faith community that Christ intends is to live in
intimate relationship with him and with other Christians. Our church is much
more tuned in to living the faith together than to memorizing the faith in
isolation…”

Ø But our broader research efforts have discovered that what makes a
church secure and stable is not mere friendliness but true concern,
compassion and caring for others.

----------------------------------------
-- Establishing Relational Priorities
----------------------------------------

Ø Believers are encouraged to intentionally create “relationship priorities”

Ø Our priorities should be clear, Christ is first in all matters;

Ø Family is second;

Ø Relationships with other believers, in particular our church family, is third

Ø Many pastors operating in a less effective church environment struggle

with this concept of prioritizing time and resources

Ø Because when churches focus their energy on priority relationships, they

become strategic. Think of it this way: If you try to create meaningful
relationships with all people, whenever and wherever opportunities arise, you
become an emotional victim

Ø Note that highly effective churches also teach their people that it is not
acceptable to focus on relationships with Christ, family and fellow believers
to the exclusion of outsiders. Every Christian has a responsibility to connect
with non-believers in ways that allow for “lifestyle evangelism” as well as
more direct discussion about faith matters

-----------------------------------
--Relationships Foster Growth
-----------------------------------

Ø Highly effective congregations place the vast bulk of their numerical-

growth efforts into relationship marketing. Instead of seeking to attract
visitors to the church through impersonal means such as direct mail

Ø The most important element of this approach, though, is the impact of

personal touch

Ø Thus, when highly effective churches welcome a newcomer to the

community of faith, the “stick rate” (the probability of retention) of those
people is higher than the norm.

Ø Visitors immediately feel they are actually part of the church

Ø There is another factor that has helped many highly effective churches to
foster a relationship ministry: They assume that many people do not know
how to build a lasting, positive relationship

Ø Other effective churches offer courses on how to build and maintain

friendships

Ø One of the most striking attributes of highly effective churches is that

every leader is a “family man” or “family woman” who spends less time and
fewer evenings in church meetings, specifically so that more non-work hours
can be spent with family. They think about the implications of church
activities and events on family life before determining the fate of those
activities and events. They show honest concern for the health and vitality of
others’ families through their conversations and decisions. Moreover, one of
the most appealing attributes of these leaders is that they truly enjoy being
with their families- and their ministry decisions reflect that priority.

--------------------------------------
-- Core Benefit of Relationships:
--------------------------------------

Ø The core reason they return each week is because of friendships they have
within that church

Ø RELATIONAL CONSISTENCY

Ø People stay in the church because of the emotional connections that

develop within the congregation. Leaving the church would cut themselves
off from “family”

Ø However, we have found that most people who move to a new location will
use the transition as an excuse to leave the church they had been attending
in favour of another church that is closer to their new home

Ø When someone attending a highly effective church relocates, however,

they are much more likely than average to continue attending the church
they had been attending prior to their move.

Ø Interviews with those individuals reveal that the primary draw is not the
preaching, the children’s program or the doctrine of the church; the magnet
is the relationships that they’ve cultivated with others in the church

Ø A church that fosters true community is indeed something special

=================================
=================================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 4 – Facilitating Genuine Worship
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--------------------------------
-- No Definitions of Worship
--------------------------------

Ø A majority of adults attending a Christian church have no idea what

worship means

----------------------------------
-- No Priority of Worship
----------------------------------

Ø A minority of people who regularly attend Christian worship services

describe worship as a “top priority” in their lives

---------------------------------------
-- Wrong Perceptions about Worship
---------------------------------------

Ø Millions of adults who frequently attend church believe that the purpose of
attending is to have a pleasing experience

Ø “Good worship” is seen as singing songs or hymns we like, hearing a

sermon that we understand or rate favourably or interacting with friends

-----------------------------------------
-- Poor Sensitivity to God’s Presence
-----------------------------------------

Ø Astoundingly few identify outcomes such as sensitivity to the Holy Spirit,

facilitating a worshipful environment or fostering God’s presence to be central
factors in the value of the worship event

-----------------------------------------
-- Defining True Worship
-----------------------------------------

Ø What does worship mean for the worshiper?

Ø What does worship mean for those at the church who will be responsible
for consistently facilitating true worship?

Ø People are clearly moved

Ø People are anxious to return to the church

Ø Worshipers experience an undeniable sense of God’s Presence

Ø Individuals experienced a deep need to repent

Ø There was a willingness to surrender control of their lives and allow God to
direct them in a more intimate or pervasive manner.

--------------------------------
-- Understanding Worship
--------------------------------

Ø Among the two-thirds who attend church services regularly but could not
provide a proper definition of worship, some of the more common guesses
were that worship is “attending church”, “being a church member” and
“believing that God exists.”

Ø Establishing that worship is about our focusing on God, not God focusing
on us

Ø Provide adults with a compelling reason to engage in worship

Ø Explain how worship is both an attitude and an action

Ø Facilitate the ability to become intimate with God

Ø Encourage people to come to the worship event prepared to worship

Ø Place the burden of success in worship upon the individual, not the
institution

Ø At the risk of offending some people, our research also shows that people
attending churches associated with certain denominations are more likely to
report consistently experiencing God’s presence

Ø In contrast, the churches that are least likely to have people who say they
have experienced God’s presence are those attending churches affiliated with
denominations that have the fewest born-again individuals

--------------------------
-- One other element that emerged in studying how effective churches raise
the level of commitment to worship
--------------------------

Ø Worship is meant to be a regular part of our daily existence

---------------------------
-- Here are examples of some of the contrasts that these ministries
intentionally use to engage people in worships:
---------------------------

Ø The head (preaching) versus the heart (music, prayer);

Ø Order (the service agenda) versus spontaneity (sensitivity to the Holy

Spirit);

Ø Reverence (awe of God) versus intimacy (meditation, confession);

Ø Transcendence (supernatural experience) versus accessibility (tangibility,

insight);
Ø Security (familiar routines) versus risk (trying new things);

Ø Joy (gratitude) versus contrition (humility);

Ø Expression (singing) versus attentiveness (listening to sermon)

------------------------
-- Worship Music
------------------------

Ø Things have changes a lot since 1950’s, when variety in worship music was
unusual. Today such variety is critical to worship because music has become
such a vital part of personal expression and vocabulary

Ø The role of music in Christian worship is central

--------------------------------------
-- Preaching and Teaching as Worship
--------------------------------------

Ø Once again it become evident that many highly effective churches have
pioneered ways of maximizing the impact of the sermon

Ø The first lesson from the highly effective churches is that people have to be
taught how to hear truth. The first step in that process is often challenging
people’s views of Scripture

Ø The second factor that enhances the influence of preaching is consistently

motivating people to spend time in earnest, private confession of their sins.
This is a cleansing process that prepares people to connect with God through
his word.

Ø Third, highly effective pastors also attribute the impact of their preaching
to the conscious shaping of congregants’ expectations. One pastor called this
his “heart message” process

Ø Credible applications, reliance upon stories and realistic illustrations

Ø Pastors often make some unwarranted assumptions about the capacity (of
the audience)

-------------------------------------
-- Some discoveries regarding those assumptions:
-------------------------------------

Ø The language used by pastors is often more sophisticated than the

congregation can understand

Ø The average sermon in Protestant churches today lasts 32 minutes

Ø Most sermons suffer from a “phasing” problem. People phase in and out of
the sermon catching some parts and missing others

Ø intermittent visual aids, vocal pitch variation, staggered presentations and

even shorter sermons-have been shown to heighten recall and impact
Ø Some preachers have not developed sufficient credibility in the minds of
listeners---a lifestyle that is consistent

-------------------------------------
-- A Worship Friendly Environment:
-------------------------------------

Ø Highly effective churches deserve credit for highlighting the importance of

prayer in worship

Ø First, seeking God’s provision for the worship experience

Ø Second, preachers at these churches spend a substantial mount of time

during the week praying that their message will hit home with everyone

Ø Third, during the worship services there are times set aside for prayer

Ø “My goal is to remove any physical failing that could possible take their
attention away from God…

==============================
==============================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 5 – Engaging in Strategic Evangelism
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ø More than four out of five Protestant pastors describe their churches as
“evangelistic”

Ø Highly effective churches treat evangelism like every other task they face:
It must be studied, the action options must be analyzed and compared,
direction from God must be earnestly sought, choices must be made, people
must be informed and prepared, and then the plans must be put into practice

Ø Their (the pastors) passion to be agents of transformation is balanced with

a respect for the people whom they wish to reach, the believers whom they
are counting on to reach them and the power of God to fulfill His promises

-----------------------------------
-- Eliminating Negative Pressure on Evangelism:
------------------------------------

Ø Christians who attend highly effective churches share their faith

consistently with non-believers. Not everyone in these congregations does
so, of course, but these ministries have a larger proportion of evangelizers
than is the norm among churches.

-- Negative pressure regarding evangelism is placed on Christians in many

different ways. Some churches do so by establishing unrealistic expectations
(“everyone in this congregation should be winning at least one person to
Christ every month”). Should congregations, perhaps, unintentionally, seek
to motivate evangelism through guilt (“if you’re not a soul winner, you’re
letting Jesus down,” “God’s kingdom depends upon you …”). I have even
visited some churches that turned evangelism into a competitive sport (“we
will celebrate the person who leads the most people to Christ at our
‘Penetrating the Darkness’ banquet next week”).

Ø Highly effective churches, however, recognize that even though every

believer has a responsibility to tell others about Christ, we all have different
gifts and abilities.

Ø My observations of highly effective churches found that they are truly

passionate about evangelism and make no excuses about the importance of
exploiting every evangelistic opportunity that is available.

Ø Whether or not the person accepts Christ is beyond human control

Ø To maximize the probability of a non-believer accepting Christ churches

teach that the foundation of viable evangelism is relationships

Ø These churches encourage people to be intentionally networked to non-

believers and to build up true friendships with those people so that when a
good opportunity to share Christ occurs they have a credibility and trust in
place to support their presentation of the gospel

Ø To facilitate the networking and the evangelistic efforts of congregants,

highly effective churches do everything they can to support their people.
-------------------------------------------

-- First, they provide low-key, seeker-friendly events that congregants can

unashamedly attend with their non-Christian friends. Some churches have a
weekly “seeker-service” designed to introduce non-believers to Christianity;
others sponsor special events ranging from “friends day” to pre-evangelistic
softball games or family outings

-- Second, these churches provide evangelistic training for all who are
interested in being more effective in sharing their faith

-- Third, these churches make resources available to the congregation

regarding evangelism
-------------------------------------

Ø Highly effective churches portray evangelism as an act of love for other

people, rather than as a means of proving one’s self-worth through
productive witnessing

Ø When sharing our faith in Christ becomes a matter of the heart, however,
our motivations are pure and both our strategies and persistence are more
likely to produce positive outcomes. I believe this explains why the highly
effective churches have a much higher rate of numerical growth from
conversations than from transfers of believers from other churches.

-----------------------------------
-- Matching People and Process
-----------------------------------

Ø It is no secret that most Christians avoid evangelism

Ø This is not because they attract people who are gifted as evangelists.
Besides eliminating negative pressure to evangelize, highly effective
churches increase the odds of successful evangelism by helping believers
match their evangelistic style to the nature of the person they are seeking to
influence

Ø Different people groups respond to different evangelistic approaches

Ø For instance, young adults responded best to what I called “Socratic

evangelism”-an approach in which a Christian engages a non-believer in a
conversation about a nonreligious issue that is important to the non-
Christian. During the course of the conversation, the Christian never tells the
non-Christian that he/she is dumb for not accepting Christ, or that Jesus is
the answer to all issues in life, or that there is only one means to truth.
Instead, the Christian listens carefully to what the non-Christian has to say
about the issue under consideration and inquires as to why the non-believer
hold such opinions-not in a threatening or offensive way, but in a manner
which thoughtfully prods the non-believer to clarify his/her stance

Ø Eventually, all issues do come down to a spiritual perspective. Over the

course of several interactions, in which the conversation on that issues gets
deeper and deeper, it will invariably reach a spiritual level

Ø Effective churches are able to help congregants understand the different

types of non-Christians they will encounter and how to “read” them for
evangelistic purposes

---------------------------
-- Counting On Kids:
---------------------------

Ø Our research shows that two out of three believers accepted Christ as their
saviour before the age of 18

Ø Across the board these churches note that evangelism among adolescents
and early teen is also a much simpler process than trying to penetrate the
hardened defences of adults

Ø One of the implications of this reality, by the way, is that the youth pastor
is not merely a caretaker or bible teacher but is the church’s primary
evangelist. Think about that when you search for your next youth pastor

Ø I don’t want to be unduly harsh toward these churches; their intentions

are honourable and they commit themselves to doing in a way they believe is
likely to be effective. The problem is one of misunderstanding. These
churches misunderstand the person they seek to evangelize; they assume
that the individual knows much more about the Christianity and spiritual
development than is the case. They also assume that because the decision
the person is making is so important, the new Christian will doggedly pursue
spiritual growth. At the same time, the person making the decision
misunderstands the very nature of the decision being made. Few of them
have a deep enough comprehension of the implications of the decision they
are making to foster a strategic commitment to Christianity and the
development of their personal faith.

Ø The other aspect of the misunderstanding relates to the persons making

the decision for Christ. We discovered that many of these people thought
they were agreeing to explore to Christian faith more deeply. Many of them
heard the language used to describe salvation by grace-“having a
relationship with Jesus,” “turning their lives over to Christ,” “being saved
from eternal damnation by the debt paid on their behalf at Calvary,”
“accepting God’s grace for eternity”- but did not grasp the practical meaning
of these phrases. Many of them had no inkling that there was more to real
Christianity than raising their hand

Ø Many of them, eternal fire insurance now acquired, depart from the church
to pursue other interests

Ø Highly effective churches maintain that if you are going to engage in

evangelism at all, you have an obligations to finish the job

-- These churches assert that you cannot separate evangelism from

discipleship; the former without the latter is simply religious marketing, and
the latter without the former builds on a foundation of sand

Ø Highly effective churches often attract people who prefer funding local
ministry efforts to global activities, but those views are challenged through
the teaching and activities of the church (*balance between local presence
and global presence)

-------------------------------
-- Participatory Approach:
-------------------------------

Ø Provides personal Involvement for Everyone

Ø Creates Responsible Stewardship

Ø Awakens Distinct Involvement in Certain people

Ø Creates a deeper Emotional Investment

Ø Creates Awareness that Missions is a Worldwide Endeavor

Ø Encourages Prayer

Ø Allows Laypeople to Become Advocates of missionary efforts

Ø Provides Opportunities for Church Members to Actively Go to the Mission

Field.

============================
============================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 6 – Facilitating Systematic Theological Growth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ø “Tell me and I’ll forget. Show me and I may remember. Involve me and I’ll
understand.”

Ø Highly effective churches intentionally provide systematic theological

education to all of their people
Ø Three facets of the faith development process of these churches stand out:
their philosophy of Christian development, the methods they use to facilitate
faith development and the integration of resources into the process

-------------------------------------
-- A Powerful Underlying Philosophy
-------------------------------------

Ø Highly effective churches see one of the major values they provide to
congregants as being this educational and developmental function

Ø This process should begin at a young age and continue until death

Ø This demands a developmental process that is comprehensive, trying

together a person’s intellectual, physical, emotional and spiritual growth

Ø Christians should be a reflective people where religious belief and practices

become as central to the person’s being as eating, sleeping and interrelating

Ø This philosophy advances the notion that Christians should be a reflective

people

--------------------------------
-- The Role of the Student:
--------------------------------

Ø One distinctive within this philosophy is that the central figure is the
student, not the teacher.

Ø I’d describe the role of the teacher as that of a tour guide rather than a
scholar

Ø For instance, one of these churches does not allow people to apply for
membership until they have completed a nine-month class regarding spiritual
foundations. Another church requires that all new members enrol in a
yearlong class on basic Christian theology, perspectives and life applications.
This depth of commitment is quite typical among highly effective churches. It
becomes clear pretty quickly that involvement in a highly effective church is
not for the fainthearted or the weekend observer. These churches are serious
about helping people to maximize their Christian faith

Ø In short, the systematic theological development process implemented by

highly effective churches does not create clones; in creates thinking
Christians who are given the tools to respond to reality in a way that is
consistent with their faith. The process becomes self-sustaining because it
works

--------------------------------------------
-- Methods for Effective Spiritual Growth:
--------------------------------------------

Ø The approach to education and development revolves around four core

principles: specified goals, personalization, variety and creativity.

Ø Highly effective congregations rely on repetition as a means to maturity.

Every believer is periodically re-exposed to the foundational, basic truths and
principals on which individual developments relies.

==============================
==============================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 7 – Holistic Stewardship
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----------------------------------------
-- Stewardship Integrated into Teaching:
------------------------------------------

Ø As you might expect, effective churches go to great lengths to integrate

biblical perspectives and principles on stewardship into all teaching. The
underlying motivation is that stewardship is a behaviour, but like any
behaviour, it is driven by values and assumptions. Consequently, these
churches work hard to include a stewardship mind-set into the various
lessons taught within the church. The pastors of these churches typically
deliver one or more sermons every year that are specifically about tithing,
giving, or financial stewardship. However, they do not abandon the concept
of stewardship at that point. Many other sermons and messages include
allusions to stewardship principles (both financial and non-monetary
stewardship). By incorporating stewardship concepts into lessons on other
topics, the congregation is not only reminded about the breadth and
importance of stewardship but is also exposed to ways of interrelating key
faith perspectives of thinking and living in a comprehensively Christian
manner.

Ø One of the outgrowths of this approach is that highly effective churches

raise more money on a per capita basis and have a higher rate of ministry
participation than do most churches

Ø Less than 5% of the church-going population tithes these days. Most

people who attend a church provide financial assistance, but it is often quite
limited-donations that amount to less that $10 week among regular
attenders and substantially less among sporadic attenders.

Ø I did find that although talking to congregants about donations is a matter

that raises great trepidation among most pastors, it is a non-issue to the
leader/pastors of highly effective churches.

==============================
==============================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 8 – Serving the Community
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ø In another national survey we conducted among a random sampling of

adults, we asked what they felt were the most important reasons for
churches to exist. Among the most frequent answers provided was to
demonstrate the love of God by helping the needy. Even adults at large deem
social service ministry to be one of the most significant contributions of the
church. In short, most adults expect churches to serve the needy.

Ø Highly effective churches combat people’s tendency to avoid the discomfort

of personal growth by creating an environment that makes such growth
virtually inescapable. It seems that these bodies usually follow a four-step
process to facilitate influential community service ministry:

1. they give permission and encouragement to engage in social service

ministry;

2. the allow their people to grow through experience, including the option of
“failing with dignity;”

3. they position people’s shortcomings in service ministry as a process of

discovery;

4. they motivate their people to continue to engage in service ministry, even

if their prior experience was unsuccessful

-- They then repeat steps two through four until their people become expert
in their ministry, and provide those successful service ministers opportunities
to encourage and train others to embrace service ministry.

Ø The reason for the remarkable impact highly effective churches have in
community service ministries is that they are so diligent about learning for
their past errors

-- In fact, one of the most significant lessons to emerge in relation to this

habit was the importance of the church’s leaders modeling firsthand
involvement with the poor, the suffering, the lonely and other social outcasts
to whom the love of Christ could be made real.

============================
============================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**CHAPTER 9 – Equipping the Family
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ø Leo Tolstoy once wrote, “All happy families resemble one another; every
unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”

------------------------------
-- What do Families Need?
------------------------------

Ø Trustworthy Counsellors

Ø A True Partnership in Marriage

Ø Better Child Development Skills

Ø Better Parenting Skills

 Ø Greater Courage to Change

Ø Greater Emotional Support

Ø A Family-Crisis Safety Net

Ø Make no mistake about it, this is the single most important principle of the
entire family development approach embraced by highly effective churches.
All of the other principles lose their power if they are not built upon this
cornerstone.

======================
======================

Unregistered User Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC
(3/27/03 2:49) Shaquille has also written in another thread --
Reply
"Proposed Code for Servants" pub28.ezboard.com/fnacboa...1745.topic

which is an excellent thread... I would also like add that along with this
"Proposed Code for Servants" that the "Serving and Leading" Guidelines be
taught and followed also.... :-)

Serving and Leading Guidelines

www.nak.org/text/13-gb.html
www.nak.org/text/13-2-gb.html
www.nak.org/text/13-2-gb....rt_version

====================
====================
Shaquille Habits of Highly Effective Churches
Registered User Great article. We have been so cloistered in the NAC with its "go it alone"
Posts: 65
mentality, that we have failed to look around at examples of what others
(3/27/03 11:32)
Reply have learned. If we are serious about bringing valuable change to the
church, it is essential that these resources be tapped. Ministers and members
must encourage leadership to reach outside of our NAC experience.
Subject
Unregistered User invite your friends
(3/28/03 21:46) Has the Chief Apostle and the District Apostles recieved their invitations to
Reply this site?
Comment
Unregistered User Do the following organization comply with your position?
(4/1/03 16:36) http://www.united-apostolic.org/
Reply

http://www.apostolicchurchqld.org.au/
Q
Unregistered User Did you forget Nepotism?
(4/8/03 18:54) Pronunciation: 'ne-p&-"ti-z&m
Reply Function: noun Etymology: French népotisme, from Italian nepotismo, from
nepote nephew, from Latin nepot-, nepos grandson, nephew -- more at
NEPHEW Date: 1670: favoritism (as in appointment to a job) based on
kinship - nep•o•tis•tic /"ne-p&-'tis-tik/ adjective

Nepotism occurs when relatives are in the same chain-of-command. A

management official or supervisor with authority to take personnel
management actions, should not select a relative for a position anywhere in
the organization under his or her jurisdiction or control.
 Relatives can be defined as follows:

• Aunt
• Brother
• Brother-in-Law
• Daughter
• Daughter-in-Law
• Father
• Father-in-Law
• First Cousin
• Half Brother
• Half Sister
• Husband
• Mother
• Mother-in-Law
• Nephew
• Niece
• Sister
• Sister-in-Law
• Son
• Son-in-Law
• Stepbrother
• Stepdaughter
• Stepfather
• Stepmother
• Stepsister
• Stepson
• Uncle
• Wife
Subject
Unregistered User Nepotism
(4/11/03 21:59) Can you think of the name of an American District Leader, Bishop and or
Reply Apostle who has no relationship as described above?
ToughTime
Registered User re: nepotism
Posts: 86 Hi subject,
(4/11/03 22:12)
Reply
To answer your question, the following will answer your search:

1- There was a rector who was ..... opps sorry related

2- An Apostle who ...... darn, my fault Father was too

3- The DA was the first ..... shoot wrong again

4- A Priest who we admire his brother the Ev .... Darn

5- OK, what was the question again

Soul
Unregistered User nepotism
(4/11/03 22:30) Nepotism in the business world generally deals with supervision and fiduciary
Reply responsibilities. I am guessing that that is what is referred to here.

NAC Leader without nepotism? Off the top of my head, the District Apostle
Freund (his brother holds an office but not under his care nor line of
management), Apostle Hammer comes to mind as does Apostle Schmidt (his
brother holds an office but not under the Apostle's management to my
knowledge), Apostle Hecht, Apostle Hoffman (east), Apostle Hoffman (west),
 Bishop Klein, Bishop Orlovski, Bishop Milligan, Bishop Schwarz, Bishop
Tessmer, etc., etc. I'd say that familial relationships in our little US division of
the church should have more relation just due to the numbers but obviously
don't. With our church based on volunteerism, it seems like the willingness to
step up to the plate would have to be something, for the most part, you are
brought up with.

Having said that...is nepotism a problem in our church and in the US? I
haven't seen it. I believe nepotism to be an issue when decisions are made
solely on the basis of familial relationship and without following the pre-
designated policy. It seems that the brothers (no pun intended) in our area
bend over backwards to prove out the following of appropriate channels
(sometimes ad nauseum...). Sometimes, the use of appropriate channels is
somewhat of a crutch in getting something done...sigh.

On an aside, I don't know if I have ever heard of a relation of our Chief

Apostle to have held office. Am I wrong?

Food for thought.....but, in my mind, not for the soul.

I remain just ONE opinion checking in........Soul

Subject
Unregistered User Nepotism
(4/13/03 15:01) Lack of Financial Transparency + Nepotism = ?
Reply
The Librarian
Unregistered User Providing Facts
(4/13/03 19:33) Soul,
Reply
After checking the most current "Who's Who in the NAC/NA District/NY East
and West Districts" I thought this info might be an interesting companion for
readers of your last post.

District Apostle Freund (who was the late Bishop Schmidt’s protégé,)
interestingly enough has 2 sons. One is an Ev., the other a Shepherd.

You left out that Bishop Freund is in NJ, just spitting distance from NY, and if
you think that he does not come under his brother in some form or fashion,
you live on another damn planet.

Apostle Schmidt (son of late Bishop Schmidt) his brother holds an office
(District Elder)

And how convenient for you to have left out the most obvious of all:

Fendt the First,

Fendt the Second and now
Fendt the Third

robk1982
Registered User Re: Providing Facts
Posts: 74 Soul probably left those names off of her list because the request was for the
(4/13/03 21:42) names of high-ranking ministers who don't have family connections. She was
Reply
answering the question, not hiding anything.
Edited by: robk1982 at: 4/13/03 8:45:51 pm
deaconess family trees and bushes
Registered User In a second marriage, NW Apostle Hoffmann's mother married DA Kraus'
Posts: 1039 cousin, I believe. Would the DA Kraus have taken "notice" of him, otherwise?
(4/14/03 9:12)
Reply
Bishop Tessmer, check out that name again and some of the marriages in
that line.

Eckhardt. Now there's some great connections there. Soul, double check who
some of the leaders have married, as well, before you dismiss possible
relations.

Re. Bishop Klein. He is the greatest example that I know of someone with
the ability, but is not an apostle (you correctly noted he is not related.) He
remained a Bishop yet I challenge you to find ANY servant in the US that can
conduct a more powerful sermon, has more spiritual depth, has greater
administrative abilities.

The first church apostles had family ties. In the Family of God, relationships
should not necessarily be a bad thing. It's just when their actions and the
substance of their message do not match the ministy that eyebrows are
raised at family ties. Justifiably so!
LynneKC Re: family trees and bushes
Registered User i can think of a few ministers in the states,specifically , that can deliver a
Posts: 337
'powerful sermon', and have spiritual depth...not high brothers necessarily
(4/14/03 15:00)
Reply either.
what touched me about bishop klein, is that he e-mailed a response to me ...
not to go into the whole kraus, eckhardt thing, but echardt's came from
apostle erb, and before that i'm not sure...might be a mierau connection.
Soul
Unregistered User Nepotism
(4/14/03 16:07) Thank you RobK. I feel like sighing. I hate defending this issue because it
Reply only opens it to more picking by these folks but they make huge leaps in
their logic that should be curtailed. Family members in the church
management, yes. Nepotism as defined in the business industry, NO, NO,
NO.

Checking in from the planet Earth - where planet are you on Librarian? BTW,
No need to swear. You make your opinion loud and clear. I don't have a lot of
time to spend on this but here goes.

Nepotism by definition relates to familial relationship, supervisory

responsibilities AND fiduciary responsibilities in the business world. The 3
Fendts were never Apostles at the same time. The succession factor
demonstrates to me a good teaching. Period. Ask a group of NACs who would
aspire to be hold an office of such responsibility and report to me their
response. That should settle that.

Bishop Freund is a brother and the District Apostle's sons hold offices - big
deal! The District Apostle would be criticized if his offspring did not make
their contributions and his brother did not make a contribution. Darned if you
do and darned if you don't. Give me one, just one, time when they did not
have to follow the appropriate channels for their fiduciary responsibilities.
ONE. The District Apostle has neither the time to deal with this nor do I see
him disregarding the chain of command for this. He has always demonstrated
respect for the pecking order. Think!

The Schmidts have no supervisory responsibility toward each other.

Apostle Hoffman's wife? Her sister was married to one of the Vovak boys. He
passed away.
 Think! Let's list again the fellas in just apostle and bishop ministries in the
USA:
Bishops: Schwartz, Milligan, Tessmer, Orlovski, Klein, Speranza, Pagel,
Freund, ....
Apostles: Hammer, Schmidt, Hecht, Hoffman (East), Vovak, Fendt, Kolb Jr,
Kolb Sr, Hoffman (West)...

I've gotta go. More later.

Let's all pray for Godly wisdom and direction.

ONE opinion checking in....Soul

Shaquille Re: Nepotism

Registered User I am not exactly clear on Soul's definition of nepotism in the business world.
Posts: 77
In my view, the issue of nepotism in the church is not over fiducary
(4/14/03 17:30)
Reply responsiblities. It is whether persons are placed into a position of
responsiblity or authority based on their family relationship with other
decision-makers rather than their abilities.

Indeed it is true that the traits that lead one person to a position of
responsibility may be inherited by the children or be a charateristic of that
family. Thus one would expect to see, in some instances, multi-generations
of office holders. That is not necessarily wrong. However, we can find
examples of persons with the "right" last name ordained that appear less
qualified then others. It is inevitable that speculation will arise as to whether
nepotism played a factor.

As I have written before, if there is even an appearance of impropriety it will

raise a concern. That is why I have advocated that the membership have
some input into who will be their servants. As long as decision-makers have
exclusive authority to select their successors without the memberships'
involvement, and those decision-makers choose to draw from a talent pool
which includes their relatives, charges of nepotism will arise.
ToughTime Shaquille
Registered User You made me remember a conversation I had with my wife yesterday.
Posts: 92
(4/14/03 18:32)
Reply We now attend a local christian church, which has paid minister. During
coffee him and I got talking and I asked if he ever avoided a 'word' or bible
reference because it may not sit right with the commitee that hires/fires him.
He looked at me and said 'to this point I can honestly say I have never
avoided a word because of that ... but I can see what you mean'. We then
carried on in more detail about other things.

When I told my wife about my question to him I said how in the NAC it could
never happen because they are NOT paid so they are not influenced by a
'commttee. She looked at me and said:

(My wife talking here): "Actually it is worse, since they are not paid or
responsible to the congregation they treat some people just aweful because
they are not afraid of retaliation. Yet, they kiss butt to the upper admin. who
can promote and protect them ... 100% opposite of our new church, NAC
protects the pecking order and be-damned the members"

I had to agree with her perception.

SpaceCowboy
Unregistered User Nepotism
(4/17/03 12:12) Soul writes:
Reply
 "Checking in from the planet Earth - where planet are you on Librarian?"

Very Christ-like of you, Soul. But that's become expected of you.

Why don't we do a poll "who is 'on planet earth', and who is 'in outer space'?
Librarian or Soul." Everyone here knows which of the two is from where.

Soul continues:
"Nepotism by definition relates to familial relationship, supervisory
responsibilities AND fiduciary responsibilities in the business world."

Checking in from the planet Earth - the definition of nepotism, as shown

before, is simply "favoritism (as in appointment to a job) based on kinship."
Soul's beating around the bush and manipulation of definitions won't

change that (not on this planet ).

Absolutely no one can say, with any credibility whatsoever, that the
succession of Fendt Apostles warrants no thought at all of nepotism (not on

this planet ).

"The 3 Fendts were never Apostles at the same time."

Simultaneousness is totally irrelevant to the definition of nepotism (on this

planet ). Did Soul not know this? Or was her statement a (failed) attempt
to distract from the obvious?

"The succession factor demonstrates to me a good teaching. Period."

Good teaching? Certainly a valid possibility. "Period," as in "That's final, there

is no other answer"? You have got to be out of your mind (whoops, we
know that already ).

"Ask a group of NACs who would aspire to be hold an office of such

responsibility and report to me their response. That should settle that."

Which do you mean?

Asking a group of NACs should settle this issue, or even something in
general?
or
Your post should settle the issue?

Either meaning is equally hilarious, and nonsensical.

LynneKC
Registered User Re: Nepotism
Posts: 357 gee, you sound a lot like katherine!
(4/17/03 20:20)
Reply
if you poll a group of na's and ask them if any would' aspire to hold such an
office of responsibility', the answer would be NO .
no one seeks their office... ;[ let me correct that, ..there are instances where
some do ,but they don't last long ,because they are doing it for the wrong
reasons]
they have proven themselves capable before they get their commission, and
they ALWAYS have the option of saying no, as we had in some cases in our
area.
 the fendts have a long lineage of blessing, as do a few here, and if one of
them was not 'right', they would not be ordained just because of family
ties...believe it or not...happened with us between 2 brothers...one was
apostle, one a bishop..one a shepherd, one a dist.ev.
same family, but each has different capabilities.
the answer is no...they do not strive to hold an office
dlcntm Is that how it works?
Registered User Hi Lynne KC,
Posts: 255
(4/17/03 20:40)
Reply You write: "the fendts have a long lineage of blessing"

Could you please for a second, just TRY to think outside of your New
Apostolic Box and listen to what that sounds like from the point of view of
one outside of the faith, or someone who is NAC alone in their family, say the
only one, or someone who is not generationally to the nth generation NAC? It
is elitist and degrading to all who are NAC and not "fendts". I know you really
don't mean to come across this way Lynne but you do, over and over again.

Please try to think about how your statements will affect other people and try
to acquire the fingertip sensitivity so as not to say things that hurt or offend
other people.

You may say I'm hurting you or offending you by saying this, and that is
certainly not my intent. It's just that the nose up in the air, better than thou
attitude that comes across from my brothers and sisters sometimes does
offend me and I wish I just didn't have to hear that kind of nonsense ever
again. Not only does it imply that the Fendt family is better "stock" than
most NAC's but then the whole can of worms that NAC's are better than
anyone else also comes across. Even the statement of "We're not better, just
better off" comes across as elitist and exclusive. It's just not true, regarding
Fendt's or NAC's in general. Not to take away anything from the Fendt family
either, it's just that they are no better than any other NAC family whether
they have multigenerational Apostles in their families or not. And NAC's are
no better or better off than anyone else who loves the Lord.

dlcntm

plcomp
Registered User Compliment
Posts: 125 LynnKC writes "gee, you sound a lot like katherine!"
(4/18/03 0:04)
Reply
IMHO, that is a great compliment. Even though you certainly did not mean it
that way.
Password diffferent church similiar issues
Unregistered User I read the following that another Christian group is experiencing.Very little
(4/24/03 14:30)
difference between the problems from one organization to another…
Reply

[link=http://www.reveal.org/library/stories/people/hkriete.htm
newwindow]http://www.reveal.org/library/stories/people/hkriete.htm[/link]

password link
Unregistered User www.reveal.org/library/stories/people/hkriete.htm
(4/24/03 14:47)
Reply
Laura International Church of Christ -- link
Registered User Wow.
Posts: 146
(4/24/03 17:57) A friend told me recently that my NAC sounded like the Church of Christ. I
Reply didn't know a thing about it at the time. But it did make me wonder.

Now having read this link that Passerby so knowingly posted...wow! It's
amazingly sad, really. They've made the same claims as the NAC, taken the
same punches from critics, allowed their heirarchy/system to abuse in
practically all the same ways, and have suffered the losses the NAC has and
will most likely continue to suffer if left uncorrected.

Katherine posted a link months ago about a church that finally owned up to
it's mistakes and made the sweeping but absolutely necessary apologies and
corrections.

This continues to be an eye-opener for me.

I urge everyone to read this link. Check it out. One could put the name NAC
on it and change a few people's names and dates and one would see that it
is all painfully, shamefully, but truthfully the SAME.

Perhaps there is a lot to be learned here. ??

Thanks Passerby. Won't you please stay awhile?

comment religious hierarchy
Unregistered User this part
(4/24/03 18:56)
Reply
By and large, intentional and unintentional, we have become a religious
hierarchy that has created, fostered and sustained a culture of control and
dependence on men, rather than freedom. As leaders in this hierarchy, we
have become a band of conflict-avoiders, cowards and men-pleasers, rather
than God-pleasers. This is the only way to explain not only what we do, but
why we keep on doing it.

That we have become a top to bottom hierarchy is not in question. The truth
is we are. Why we have chosen this model, and sought to crystallize it, when
the apostolic church has no such model, is the big question. Even with other
models to pattern ourselves after; even with so many teachers in our
churches who surely know better, the fact is that we have chosen and
systematically enforced this one. The reason I use the word 'enforced' is
simple: we have become what we've wanted to become; what we have
insisted on becoming.

How did this happen? I am not entirely sure. Why we let happen is the more
radical question. We began with good intentions: to structure ourselves, to
create a framework for our message and our mission, and to foster unity and
cooperation. Over time, however, we've evolved into a culture that has not
respected the dignity of human freedom, but instead has sought to control
the lives of those under us and around us. Well-intentioned or not, we have
failed to become a people pleasing to God. I believe that God is now
opposing our cult of personality, and our abuse of spiritual authority in the
strongest possible way.

What do I mean by a culture of control? Consider these facts: We are a

hierarchy, and have been led by one man at the top. We have had a
'founder', complete with personal and 'kingdom-wide' authority that we were
expected to respect and follow. We have had World Sector Leaders and
Geographic Sector Leaders - to consolidate the grip of power and establish a
global network of control over every last congregation.

In my opinion is very similiar to the NAC...In the bible is the organization

 structure put forth by the biblical Apostles that all these ministries should be
present namely Deacon, Priest, Shepard, Evangelist, Elder, Bishop, Apostle,
Prophet?

The structure should not be that one reports to the other? I'd appreciate any
insight on this by someone more learned that I.

thanks in advance...
Comment Self Quiz
Unregistered User A group starts with two people. And two individuals can find themselves
(4/26/03 21:46)
embroiled in many of the same fundamental destructive group dynamics that
Reply
large organizations fall prey to. Are you "UNDER THE INFLUENCE" of a
destructive group or belief system? Find out with this SELF QUIZ:

Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their
belief system?

Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes
against your sense of right and wrong?

Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and
projects?

Does your group have its own unique words, clichés, slogans, chants, prayers
and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?

Are doubts viewed as a lack of faith, dedication, commitment or disloyalty?

Have "your thoughts" become "the enemy?"

Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group or
because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own?

Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members?

Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior?

Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people
with different beliefs are out to get them?

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth,
or have the solution for the world’s problems?

Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or

sacred?

Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires

unquestioning obedience and loyalty?

Do members of your group feel specially chosen, superior, exclusive, elite?

Do you feel the need to save or convert others to your belief system or
ideology?
Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings,
activities or beliefs?

Does your group equate purity and goodness to being in your group, and
impurity or evil to those outside your group?

Do you place your group’s mission or agenda above your own goals and
ideals? Do group interests come before your own interest

Do you find yourself thinking in a we-they, us-versus-them mind set?

Does your group/system have a clear outside enemy?

Do you see less and less of your family and friends who do not belong to
your group or who do not subscribe to your group’s belief system?

Does your group use frequent public testimonials, confessions, or sharings

that reinforce the group’s mission or agenda?

Is communication within, into and out of your group controlled or censored in

any manner?

Does your group criticize, shun, abandon or demean individuals who leave
the group?

Do members seek approval or get permission from group leader(s) for

personal life choices?

Do you feel pressured to attend meetings, events, lectures, seminars? And

do you feel guilty if you don’t attend?

Do you feel pressured to give a portion of your income to the group, or

spend money on courses, books or special projects?

Are the group’s financial needs more important than your own economic
well-being?

Does your group discriminate against anyone regarding race, gender, belief,
or sexual orientation?

Does your group have a totalitarian structure: a strict, top-down centralized

control?

Do you wonder if you have been in a destructive group?

Do you...

...have difficulty forming new friendships and intimate relationships?

...have low self-esteem, poor self-image or loss of identity?

...have difficulty making simple decisions and choices?

...often feel depressed, anxious and nervous?

...feel isolated, lonely, guilty, cynical?

...feel like you are just now growing up, becoming a mature adult?
 ...have short-term memory difficulties?

...feel you have nothing to believe in?

...often feel anger and rage towards the group?

...have nightmares or unpleasant dreams?

...find it difficult or impossible to stop mental or other group ritualistic

practices?

This quiz has no scientifically predetermined number of "yes" answers to

indicate a destructive group. However, answering "yes" to any of the above
questions means you may need to examine your group and its influence in
your life in those areas.

Source: http://www.factnet.org
NOBODY Self Quiz
Registered User I think the company I work for is a Sect !!***!!!!!!!
Posts: 6
What do I do now ??
(4/28/03 16:29)
Reply
myule now
Unregistered User NOBODY "What do I do now ?? "
(4/29/03 6:31)
Reply
take the money and run
Karl N Unless
Registered User They'll hunt you down like a dog.
Posts: 1432
(5/20/03 15:51)
Reply
ejm111
Unregistered User 80% score
(5/22/03 2:50) outch, that one hurt.
Reply Working on it, used to have about 80% score on the last ones.

Worked it down to 50%. And the rest is being worked on...

But one day....

ejm111

Do you...

...have difficulty forming new friendships and intimate relationships?

...have low self-esteem, poor self-image or loss of identity?

...have difficulty making simple decisions and choices?

...often feel depressed, anxious and nervous?

...feel isolated, lonely, guilty, cynical?

...feel like you are just now growing up, becoming a mature adult?

...have short-term memory difficulties?

 ...feel you have nothing to believe in?

...often feel anger and rage towards the group?

...have nightmares or unpleasant dreams?

...find it difficult or impossible to stop mental or other group ritualistic

practices?
vapour123
Registered User Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC
Posts: 24 Just to bring this into focus again - here is Shaquille's list of:
(5/23/03 17:49)
Reply
Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC -- and
-- Deaconess's list of Current NAC Church Project & Work Groups, and
as she noted no Project Group exists to study the Women's Role in the
Church.

SIX ESSENTIAL REFORMS NECESSARY TO THE LONG TERM VIABILITY

OF THE NEW APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

The following is, for lack of a better term, a “position paper” of six
substantial reforms I believe are necessary in the NAC of North America.
Because this entire statement is lengthy, it is broken into several posts. This
post will set forth six reforms with a one paragraph summary of arguments
and anticipated benefits. Each proposed reform with expanded discussion will
be a separate post, put up over the next few days, allowing the reader to
focus on those statements and issues of greatest interest. For the fullest
discussion and debate, readers are encouraged to read each post in their
entirely as they go up.

The views and opinions are strictly the author’s, and are not intended to
imply any official position of the church.

1. The NAC should clearly and unambiguously abandon the position

of exclusivity. Summary: There is ample evidence of the activity of the Holy
Spirit outside of the NAC to conclude that exclusivity is not viable. The
church’s position remains ambiguous. By clearly renouncing exclusivity, the
church can effectively participate in the ecumenical movement alive in the
rest of Christianity. Further, it will compel the church to be more responsive
to the membership, because members will know they have alternatives.

2. Effectively implement Christ-centered teaching. Summary: The

notion of seeking Christ through a close connection with a “blessing bearer”
misleads the children of God and opens the church to the criticism that man
is being placed before Christ. Rules and procedures without spiritual basis
detract from the pure teaching of Christ, cause unnecessary offense, and are
ineffective in bringing the members to a Christ-like nature. The church must
be an expression of Christ and lead all congregants directly to him. Benefits
from this change are greater spirituality among members and ministers, and
less defections among believers turned off by non-spiritual rules.

3.Bring women into the ministry and church administration.

Summary: Women are the most underutilized resource in the NAC. There are
many qualified sisters that meet the criteria of a good minister, and should
not be overlooked due to gender. Equality for women is a key concept in
Western society and implementation is long overdue in the church. This can
only be accomplished by the ordination of women into the ministry. The
benefits from such a change are a fresh pool of talent brought to the
ministry, and a church structure more reflective of the society in which it
operates.

4. Reduce reliance on a lay-ministry and introduce professional

ministers with seminary training. Summary: The problem of a lay-
ministry is that there are insufficient resources to do the work effectively.
The brother with a full-time job will be unable to provide the time necessary
to get the job done effectively. Further, the lack of a seminary education
leaves the church unable to participate in the ecumenical movements
sweeping Christianity today, or to articulate with authority church positions
on doctrine. A professional, seminary-trained ministry will have the time and
possess the abilities necessary to further the work in the congregations, and
to reach out to the rest of Christianity.

5. Reorganize the national administration so that the Synod is truly

representative of the members, and institute local autonomy.
Summary: The Church is not responsive to the members because successive
leaders are selected by those in authority, without input from the
membership. This stifles new ideas and change in policy, and fosters
nepotism. Leaders should be selected by the members, and those leaders
participate in a truly representative Synod with authority to debate policy
and implement changes. This will make the national leadership responsive to
the members and tolerant of local autonomy.

6. Open all church financial books and records. Summary: American

culture expects full disclosure in its institutions. Disclosure would increase
confidence and accountability in the church administration. The members are
the church, and should rightfully know how their offerings are spent and
have input into those decisions. The benefits of accountability and
participation will outweigh the negatives of sometimes unwarranted criticism
by a few.

Current NAC Project & Work Groups-

From the March 2003 Our Family:

Project Groups
Book: All about the NAC
Choir Literature
The New Apostolic Faith
Contemporary Questions
Hymn Book
Questions of Faith
Youth Care
Teaching Aids/Children
Children and Music
Membership Date/Administration
Music
Revelation
Ecumenism
Instruction to the Ministers
Copyright
Science and Faith

Work Groups
Advisory Experts/Music
History of the NAC
Doctrine and Knowledge
Word of Life
Medicine
 Public Relations Work Europe

Expert Groups
Civil Service Law/FRG
District Churches in Germany

I'm not finding a listing for the Women's Role in the Church Project
Group that the DA Freund referred to in substantiating putting a hold on the
women's greeting program until there is an official finding..... ??????

========================
Edited by: vapour123 at: 5/23/03 4:51:11 pm
deaconess Reform #2: Effectively implement Christ-centered teaching
Registered User 2. Effectively implement Christ-centered teaching. Summary: The
Posts: 1210
notion of seeking Christ through a close connection with a “blessing bearer”
(5/24/03 3:57)
Reply misleads the children of God and opens the church to the criticism that man
is being placed before Christ. Rules and procedures without spiritual basis
detract from the pure teaching of Christ, cause unnecessary offense, and are
ineffective in bringing the members to a Christ-like nature. The church must
be an expression of Christ and lead all congregants directly to him. Benefits
from this change are greater spirituality among members and ministers, and
less defections among believers turned off by non-spiritual rules.

Quote:
So leaders resort to right-handed and left-handed ways of leading in order to
gain control or keep the peace.

Right-handed leaders will try to keep order by centralizing power. A right-

handed pastor will preach about submission and authority while employing a
hierarchical, top-down management sytle that often becomes legalistic. The
result is a church organized to protect a leader instead of to point to Christ.

Left-handed leaders think and act in the opposite direction, encouraging a

decentralized, unfocused form of management that fails to lead or to grow a
people. Here the object and subject is also the leader, who will often elicit
sympathy by playing the wounded victim. The result is a Christian landscape
that compromises truth to keep the peace.

We find leaders like this because we unintentionally form them...

from Making Peace: A Guide to Overcoming Church Conflict by Jim Van

Yperen

We find leaders like this because we unintentionally form them...

Where is the members' adulation directed? Has the misdirected emulation

been unintentional... or rather is it a result of the intentional misleading of
the leaders? We have our own will... are the members guilty of perpetuating
the emulation of men?
Edited by: deaconess at: 5/24/03 3:00:01 am
JF ez perpetuation...
Registered User
Posts: 1908 Why do you persecute Me?
(5/24/03 5:43) Acts 9:4
Reply | Edit
 Many... would take that to mean, "Why dost thou persecute My people?",
that is to say, individuals going on faithfully in their pathways; but "Why dost
thou persecute me?" — a glorious "Me".

Does that exclude any? Oh, the comprehensiveness of that little word,
speaking to us of all the grace in which He went through this scene in
obedience to His Father’s will, the choice Object of His Father’s love, shedding
the grace of His Father here in this scene of death.

Think of it: "Me"! Oh, that we might be spiritually ambitious to take up our
part in the mystery, in the perpetuation of Christ here in all His graces!

Are you thinking of the joy of being with Him soon? That is a wonderful
prospect; but think of the joy of perpetuating Him here... a joyous company
in the acclamation of heaven’s reception of Jesus, and in the perpetuation of
Him here for heaven’s delight.
deaconess Reform #2: Effectively implement Christ-centered teaching
Registered User "Since all the members of the New Apostolic Church look upon him [Chief
Posts: 1220
Apostle] as the Lord's vicar on earth, and seeing that he knows it is
(5/26/03 22:34)
Reply incumbent upon him to aid his Brothers and Sisters in all matters of faith, his
unique position is devoid of any dictatorial authority over the Church, it is
comparable to that of Christ and the early Apostles, it is in fact analogous."
from History of the Kingdom of God, Volume I. Frankfurt: Bischoff, 1971, first
ed.

Does the above still hold true? Has the current edition been edited?
GerGuest001 Re: Reform #6: Open all church financial books and records
Registered User 6. Open all church financial books and records. Summary: American
Posts: 4
culture expects full disclosure in its institutions.
(5/27/03 14:14)
Reply
I'd suggest that other cultures will definetely also welcome openness :-)

Regards, GerGuest001
Eric Christ-centered?
Registered User Deaconess, you quoted:
Posts: 88
(5/27/03 16:25)
Reply ...[The Chief Apostle's] unique position is devoid of any dictatorial authority
over the Church, it is comparable to that of Christ and the early
Apostles, it is in fact analogous.

This strikes me as a rather arrogant statement. This does one of two things:

1. elevates the Chief Apostle to Christ's level, or

2. brings Christ down to a human level

Both are wrong. Besides, the statement is wrong on it's face.

The Chief Apostle most certainly does have dictatorial authority over the
church. Just listen to DA Freund elevate obedience to the CA's wishes as a
worthy spiritual goal. We satisfy God by fulfilling the wishes of the CA.

Similarly, Christ also had dictatorial authority over His church. Wasn't He the
head of the church? Didn't He reveal God's will to the followers? Wasn't He
actually God in the flesh? God and His Son have all the power in the world
over the church.

It is true that both the Chief Apostle and Jesus have "unique positions." The
CA is the head of an earthly organization that strives to follow Christ. Jesus,
 in fact, is that Christ the CA strives to follow -- the worthy sacrifice and the
hope of salvation for all mankind. To compare the two in this way is just so
much Apostle-worship. If the NAC really wants to become Christ-centered
why don't they publicly refute such statements as the blasphemy that they
are.

Eric
ByGraceAlone Re: Christ-centered?
Registered User It is quite possibly a poor translation from the German. If read differently, it
Posts: 122
actually can be comparing the role of Chief Apostle to the Apostles of the first
(5/27/03 16:56)
Reply sending - neither being dictatorial. I think that is what they were trying to
say. Whether it is true is an entirely different discussion.

regards,
JJD
Edited by: ByGraceAlone at: 5/27/03 6:00:43 pm
Curious translate this
Unregistered User Again with the "bad translation" story. How many times can that be the
(5/27/03 23:11)
reason for something stated by a NAC officer?
Reply
plcomp Re: Christ-centered?
Registered User BGA, that must be it!!
Posts: 162
(5/27/03 23:39)
Reply What else?
ByGraceAlone Re: Christ-centered?
Registered User Well ... it makes no sense! You don't compare one thing to two things. The
Posts: 124
Chief Apostle is not analagous to "Jesus and the Apostles" ... he is either
(5/27/03 23:57)
Reply being compared to Jesus or the first Apostles. The latter makes more sense.

Yes ... it should not surprise you to know there are MANY bad translations in
church literature from German to English. You don't find these problems in
US originating periodicals... such as the US and Canada District News
magazine.

regards,
JJD
deaconess put a little English on it...
Registered User BGA commented: You don't find these problems in US originating
Posts: 1226
periodicals... such as the US and Canada District News magazine.
(5/28/03 10:30)
Reply
from the pamphlet I live... "Printed in Canada for New Apostolic Church
Canada":

Apostles in our time

In our time too -- no less than in the first Christian congregations -- Apostles
fulfil Jesus Christ's commission. They proclaim the will of God, baptize with
water, dispense the Holy Spirit, forgive sins, and celebrate Holy Communion
with the faithful.

Do Canadians speak a different English than the Yankees? Apparently from

the above paragraph the NAC believes that the apostles forgive sins. I'm not
finding "in His name"...

ByGraceAlone Re: put a little English on it...

Registered User The former sentence stating that "Apostles fulfil Jesus Christ's commission"
Posts: 127
addresses that point. To repeat a second time "in His name" for all the
(5/28/03 10:40)
Reply sacraments would be redundant. If you are fulfulling a commission given to
you by someone, than obviously you are doing it in that person's name - or
better said by their authority.

regards,
JJD
deaconess drawing conclusions
Registered User No, BGA. As the paragraph reads, if you are to subdivide and reconnect it
Posts: 1227
would read that Jesus commissioned the Apostles to forgive sins -- meaning
(5/28/03 11:03)
Reply He told them to personally forgive sins. There is nothing in that paragraph to
say "in His name."

You're possibly reading into it something that is not there... a guest could
easily misinterpret that paragraph to mean that the NACs believe that it is
the apostles forgiving sins. In fact, we've had several instances in our
congregation where guests have come from the neighborhood, picked up
that brochure and come to that same conclusion.
LACNAC Re: drawing conclusions
Registered User I agree that the wording (or the statement itself) is incorrect and does lead
Posts: 91
to the conclusion that the Apostle ministry is able to forgive sins. However,
(5/28/03 11:46)
Reply when the absolution is spoken, the words stated are "In the Name of the
Lord Jesus Christ". At least as far as the ritual (for lack of a better word)
goes, there seems to be an acknowledgement that sin are forgiven in Christ's
name, not by the Apostles themselves. Maybe just semantics, or a definite
need to rewrite our literature to make it consistant with our practices.
Edited by: LACNAC at: 5/28/03 11:47:22 am
Shaquille Drawing conclusions
Registered User I agree with Curious; we need to stop "explaining away" our literature as bad
Posts: 107
translations. It is the church's responsiblity when something is published to
(5/28/03 17:06)
Reply be certain the meaning is correctly stated regardless of where the publication
originated.

I also agree with Deaconess that its not just faulty translations that lead to
apostle-centered statements in church literature. It is NAC culture that has
raised up the ministry such that apostles tend to eclipse Christ in both
publications and preaching. We will know when this church truly becomes
Christ-centered when these statements are corrected to unambiguously state
that all spiritual gifts come from God.
deaconess 6. Open all church financial books and records.
Registered User Reform #6
Posts: 1228
(5/28/03 20:43)
Reply 6. Open all church financial books and records.
Summary: American culture expects full disclosure in its institutions.
Disclosure would increase confidence and accountability in the church
administration. The members are the church, and should rightfully know how
their offerings are spent and have input into those decisions. The benefits of
accountability and participation will outweigh the negativesof sometimes
unwarranted criticism by a few.

With an apparent need for increased revenues for the NAC (confirmed by the
recent promotion in the May Word of Life), board monitors should make note
of the following suggestions from Barna Research Online:

Tithing Down 62% in the Past Year

May 19, 2003

"Asked about the steps that churches could take to encourage more people
to give at least ten percent of their income to their church, Barna noted that
 the most effective strategy is to ensure that congregants make their life
decisions on the basis of a biblical worldview. That is a long-term approach,
however, and he noted that in the short-term it is helpful to give
evidence of the ministry needs people’s money would be devoted to,
show how efficiently the church uses money, demonstrate the life-
changing impact of the church’s ministry, and establish trust and
confidence in the leadership of the church."

To see entire article click on: www.barna.org/cgi-

bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=139&Reference=A
deaconess Reform #1, addressing exclusivity
Registered User "1. The NAC should clearly and unambiguously abandon the position
Posts: 1232
of exclusivity. Summary: There is ample evidence of the activity of the Holy
(5/29/03 8:08)
Reply Spirit outside of the NAC to conclude that exclusivity is not viable. The
church’s position remains ambiguous. By clearly renouncing exclusivity, the
church can effectively participate in the ecumenical movement alive in the
rest of Christianity. Further, it will compel the church to be more responsive
to the membership, because members will know they have alternatives."

An example of an exclusive line of thinking from House Rules and Creed

for the Members of the New Apostolic Church, English Edition 1969:

The New Apostolic Church

A brief account

"The New Apostolic Church is a community of faithful Christians who are

aware that they possess a high calling in God, which knowledge has
prompted them to congregate round the Apostles of Jesus sent in our time.
They know that they can partake of Jesus' merit through the
intermediary of the Apostles alone, and that this is the only way to
attain the righteousness that counts with God."
Edited by: deaconess at: 5/29/03 12:39:40 pm
deaconess Project Group Projections
Registered User Does anyone have information on the Reform Project Group? I had heard
Posts: 1278
previously that this group existed... yet I'm not finding it listed in the March
(6/11/03 9:15)
Reply 2003 Our Family article re. project groups.

NOBODY Re: Reform #1, addressing exclusivity

Registered User
Posts: 14
Deaconess:
(6/11/03 14:21)
Reply
How about:

Article 8:
I believe that those baptised with water must receive the Holy Spirit through
an apostle, to obtain the childhood in God, whereby they become
incorporated as members in the body of Christ.

This is from the current NAK.COM do you consider this exclusive ? I do.
passingthru Re: Reform #1, addressing exclusivity
Registered User I'm not Deaconess...but I will agree with you that Article 8 needs to be
Posts: 8
changed (of course if it changes - NAC Apostle's will feel that their role is
(6/11/03 17:05)
Reply diminished).
 Perhaps Article 8 could read:

---------------------------------
I believe in the Holy Spirit as the gift from God which indwells all
those who believe in Christ and have incorporated themselves into
the visible body of Christ through the Sacrament of Baptism.
---------------------------------

The Apostle's role is not entirely diminished. The "Holy Sealing" or "Laying on
of Hands" can remain a symbol that the Holy Spirit has made its home in
someone.
NOBODY Re: Reform #1, addressing exclusivity
Registered User I would just change it to say:
Posts: 15
(6/11/03 18:39)
Reply Article 8:
I believe that those baptised with water CAN receive the Holy Spirit through
an apostle, to obtain the childhood in God, whereby they become
incorporated as members in the body of Christ.

This avoids the crazy position of telling God He can or can not do something.
Currently, if I am thinking right,and I am sure Shaq will post in if I am not,
God must use apostles to distribute the Holy Spirit ! As far as anyone else
having the Holy Spirit that is not for me to deny or confirm that is the Lord's
position. Me, I see many noble souls who are not NAC; more noble than
myself and I am an active member.

Shaquille Reform #1, restatement of Article 8

Registered User I agree with Nobody's suggestion that Article 8 as it stands is a statement of
Posts: 126
exclusivity. I also agree with his/her proposed restatement of the Article. It
(6/11/03 18:58)
Reply allows for the church to maintain its distinctiveness in believing in
dispensation through the apostle ministry without being "stuck" in the
position of arguing exclusivity. As many have pointed out, there are too
many examples of the activity of the HS in non-NAC to contend otherwise.
And why should we be troubled if others have received the HS at baptism as
described in passingthru's statement? It does not do violence to the doctrine
to conceed that God can and does dispense His Spirit in other ways.
LynneKC Re: Reform #1, restatement of Article 8
Registered User 12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this
Posts: 532
people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet
(6/12/03 8:02)
Reply thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my
sight.
13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me
now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and
consider that this nation is thy people.
14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up
hence.
16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace
in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I
and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast
spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will
proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I
will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou
passingthru Re: Reform #1, restatement of Article 8
Registered User Lynne:
Posts: 11
(6/12/03 8:25)
Reply
If you agree with: "...and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will
shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

Then, surely you can see, that Article 8 handcuffs God into only giving the
Spirit through Apostles? So really it should read: "...and will be gracious to
whom the Apostles are gracious, and will shew mercy on whom the Apostles
shew mercy."

Do you see anything wrong with this?

tncs Re: Reform #1, restatement of Article 8
Registered User Article 8:
Posts: 271
"I believe that those baptised with water must receive the Holy Spirit through
(6/13/03 5:59)
Reply an apostle, to obtain the childhood in God, whereby they become
incorporated as members in the body of Christ."

Hebrews 3 : 1
"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the
Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"

If Jesus is an apostle, where is the exclusivity here?

Eric
Registered User Now this is Funny
Posts: 89 On the other hand, we are told that any Apostle who does not come under
(6/13/03 7:13) the authority of the Chief Apostle is illegitimate. Hmmm... so the Chief
Reply
Apostle has authority over... Jesus? I guess this clarifies our doctrine!
Hmmm
Unregistered User Re: Now this is Funny
(6/13/03 7:23) "Hmmm... so the Chief Apostle has authority over... Jesus? I guess this
Reply
clarifies our doctrine! "

Hmmm... so what does this clarify about those of you who realize this, yet
stay?
how about revised article 8
Unregistered User Article 8:
(6/13/03 8:41)
"I believe that those baptised with water must receive the Holy Spirit, to
Reply
obtain the childhood in God, whereby they become incorporated as members
in the body of Christ."
Andy Kieswetter
Registered User Re: Now this is Funny
Posts: 1 (This message was left blank)
(6/13/03 10:39) Edited by: Andy Kieswetter at: 6/18/03 3:12
Reply
deaconess Article 8
Registered User tncs
Posts: 1283
Registered User
(6/13/03 13:44)
Reply Posts: 138
(7/5/02 3:49)
Reply Comment on the Eighth Article of Faith[/b

The Eighth Article of Faith:

"I believe that those baptized with water must through a living
Apostle be sealed with the Holy Spirit to receive the right of the
firstborn, whereby they are incorporated as members into the body
of Christ."

Hebrews 3:1
 "Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your
thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess."

Is Jesus Christ himself not a living Apostle?

Edited by: tncs at: 7/5/02 7:36:57 am

~~~~~~~~~

deaconess
Registered User
Posts: 275
(7/5/02 9:00)
Reply Re: Comment on the Eighth Article of F

tncs commented:
Quote:

Hebrew 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix
your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

Is Jesus Christ himself not a living Apostle?

Question & Answer Book:

Who administers the Holy Spirit in our time?

In the present time, the Holy Spirit is administered by the Chief Apostle and
the Apostles of the New Apostolic Church (2 Corinithians 3:6,8 ).

...the wording of the above Q&A excerpt does not acknowledge the inference
of your biblical reference or suggest that there are currently "alternative"
means of obtaining the Holy Spirit.
vapour123
Registered User Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC
Posts: 63 I posted this on another thread and thought I would post it here also... This
(6/18/03 11:08) goes along quite well with Shaquille's Excellent post ...."Six Reforms
Reply
Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC"

-------------------------------------
Jesus Christ is The Head of The Christian Church
-------------------------------------

Quote:
"This was clarified within the past couple of years by
the Chief Apostle Fehr...."

I wish the Chief Apostle/District Apostle would clarify and fix many
more things in the NAC Doctrine like:
---------------------------------

1. Totally end "NAC EXCLUSIVITY" - 'We are the only ones...'

2. Change and correct The Articles of the NAC Creed.

www.nak.org/text/11-gb.html

3. Fix and Correct The "Gap" Theory.

4. Determine what the Scriptures say in context about The Service

for The Departed and Correct what needs to be corrected.

5. Have a mixture of Outreach, Teaching, Visiting, Community

Fellowship Programs catered not only inwardly, but also with an
outward focus towards others

6. Get Rid of "BOB", "Blessing Bearer", "Obedience" and "Be in

Oneness with those that go before You" Concepts.

7. Present and Teach a "CHRIST CENTERED" Only Doctrine.

8. Correct current Biblical Interpretations of Scripture and Use

Correct Bibical Scripture Interpretation.

9. Teach Members and Ministers the Bible.

10. Have Wednesday Evening Bible Studies instead of Service.

11. Stress "OutReach" Programs and "Community Service".

12. Use the Bible in Service More and Encourage Members to Bring
and Use their Bibles in Service.

13. Give the Bible Textword a week in advance, so members can

Study for the next Service, encouraging reading and studying the
Scriptures.

14. Give each member a tablet or a piece of paper, in which each

member can take notes in Service and from the Bible Texts, which in
turn the members can actually dig deeper into the Services to fulfil
their Spiritual Hunger for the "Word of God" !!!

15. Add a "Praise & Worship" Team, with today's Contemporary

Christian Praise and Worship Songs, seperate from and/or in
addition to our choirs, orchestra's and congregational singing.

16. Teach and Empower Members in Discipleship and Evangelism

Programs along with Bible Study Programs.

17. Work with other Christian Churches in the surrounding area.

18. Teach each member to have a 'Personal Relationship' with Jesus

Christ, instead of their "Blessing Bearer" or "BOB" or their "Apostle".

19. Get involved in Cross-Christian Programs with other Christian

Churches and other Christians.

20. Encourage others to "Just Do It"... "Be Creative"... "Open

Ideas"... Forget the 'Where will the Oneness go' Theory... Let Each
Congregation have it's own unique "FLAVOR", while Worshipping
Jesus Christ and maintaining and growing in a "Personal
Relationship" with Jesus Christ as the Main Focus...

21. Encourage Women to participate more in Leadership and

 Teaching Roles.

22. Introduce a Minister Training Program through accredited Bible

Colleges and start to have Full-Time Paid Ministers dedicated to
locally, teach, disciple, and look after the members and to actively go
out and Proclaim and Teach the 'Gospel of Christ' to others through
Evangelism and OutReach Programs.

I am sure I can think of many more...

Edited by: vapour123 at: 1/23/04 2:31
Shaquille List of "fixes"
Registered User I wholeheartedly concur with your list. Ultimately, to accomplish these "fixes"
Posts: 130
there must be a press from the general membership and the CA. Members
(6/18/03 13:20)
Reply must not back away from controversey if these problems are to be
addressed. The question becomes, will enough members demand these
changes from their church?

Good post Vapour123

vapour123
Registered User Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC
Posts: 71 Let's start the "REFORM PROCESS" with getting rid of "EXCLUSIVITY"...
(7/1/03 20:09) This should be target No. 1 for the 30,000 Souls/Lights Program...
Reply

1. The NAC should clearly and unambiguously abandon the position

of exclusivity. "Summary: There is ample evidence of the activity of the
Holy Spirit outside of the NAC to conclude that exclusivity is not viable. The
church’s position remains ambiguous. By clearly renouncing exclusivity, the
church can effectively participate in the ecumenical movement alive in the
rest of Christianity. Further, it will compel the church to be more responsive
to the membership, because members will know they have alternatives."

This question from the NAC Question & Answer Book leads one to believe
that the only way to recieve the Holy Spirit is thru the Chief Apostle and the
Apostles of the New Apostolic Church... No other way to administer the "Holy
Spirit" in our time..... "IT IS TIME" to "ABANDON EXCLUSIVITY" !!!! Get
rid of this concept altogether !!! ---- "IT IS TIME"

===================

NAC Question & Answer Book:

Who administers the Holy Spirit in our time?

In the present time, the Holy Spirit is administered by the Chief Apostle and
the Apostles of the New Apostolic Church (2 Corinithians 3:6,8 ).

====================

Reform simply must take place in the NAC.... foremost the NAC needs to
Abondon.... "EXCLUSIVITY"!!! "IT IS TIME"
Edited by: vapour123 at: 1/24/04 15:32
Shaquille The way we where.....
Registered User A retired servant recently relayed to me that the church finances were at one
Posts: 215
time publicly disclosed to the membership. Back in the late 1940s early 50s
(1/27/04 13:15)
Reply the Apostle Fendt (senior) came for annual meetings in Chicago to meet
state law requirements. At that time the brothers gathered and were advised
of church revenues, expenditures, acquisitions, salaries, savings, everything.

When the US was brought under Canadian leadership and the DA Kraus, all
 such disclosures stopped. Thus began the "its none of your business" era.

It is ironic that the church was more open with its finances 60 years ago than
it is today.
deaconess duress
Registered User Shaquille, the books were open then because the N.American NAC
Posts: 1837
Constitution from the 1930's made it mandatory. Of course, you change the
(1/27/04 13:50)
Reply constitution along the way, under duress of losing your office if you don't
approve of the changes... and voila! No more accountability!

I was told by a retired D. Elder that at one time a revised constitution was
presented to the brothers and they were told not to read it... just sign it... if
they asked any questions they would lose their "office"... I would think if one
wished to challenge the validity of ensuing constitutions, one might have a
strong case???
re:The way we where.....
klitzke "A retired servant recently relayed to me that the church finances were at
Uber Elephant
Posts: 837
one time publicly disclosed to the membership. Back in the late 1940s early
(1/29/04 21:39) 50s the Apostle Fendt (senior) came for annual meetings in Chicago to meet
Reply state law requirements. At that time the brothers gathered and were advised
ezSupporter of church revenues, expenditures, acquisitions, salaries, savings,
everything."

Gee, I wonder when they have staff meetings in Sea Cliff and the DA
complains/comments about the pressure to open up the books, if the current
AP Fendt ever mentions that his Grandfather did it years ago (which he couls
easily verify) and the North American NAC didn't fall all to pieces.

Ken
RudiSt NAC reformation
Posts: 130 Why talking about reforms...
(2/11/04 14:42)
Reply

.... here is a whole reformation:

www.harvestnet.org/report...stolic.htm

KarlSr Re: re:The way we where.....

Registered User My dear Rudi and many others;
Posts: 82
You guys are barking up the wrong tree.
(2/14/04 4:12)
Reply Your proposal to change the doctrine of the NAC will never ever be
considered by the NAC leadership.
Academics like you and some others with common sense are NOT
appreciated by the NAC.
To change things you have to be at least in de {Senate) or "Bundestag” read
inner circle of the decision making circle like "District Apostle".
Just to keep things straight please do not only blame the NAC, the Lutherans
and Catholics church, have a history of ignorance too, see the “Pope” leader
decides, not you and me.
Have a nice day
Go out with your RV and enjoy a few days of meditation Am Bodensee, like
Langenargen, I was there, camping in 1950.
KarlSr
JF ez Re: NAC reformation
Registered User Superstition, unbelief, and carnal wisdom have endeavoured to usurp the
Posts: 2471 place of Christ crucified, to the grief of the church of God. The enemies
(2/14/04 8:29) without do us small damage, but those within the church cause her serious
Reply | Edit
harm; by supplanting the truth and placing error in its stead, they deceive
the people, and lead multitudes to destruction. As a Jew felt a holy horror
when he saw an idolatrous emblem set up in the holy place, even so do we
when in the NAC we see the fooleries of Rome, and when from pulpits, once
occupied by men of God, we hear philosophy and vain deceit.
re: The way we were
BrendaP KarlSr wrote :
Administrator
Posts: 2524
(2/14/04 17:59) "To change things you have to be at least in de {Senate) or "Bundestag”
Reply read inner circle of the decision making circle like "District Apostle"
ezSupporter
I disagree with you there. "Pressure" from outside the inner circle does play
a role. Whether this will be acknowledged or not is another matter. For
obvious reasons the church would attribute any "changes" to "divine
inspiration" made known to the leadership only...

Some time back, in 1999, the CA was presented with some facts, as follows :

"Your belief that Peter was the first Chief Apostle is based on an
interpretation of Matthew 16: 18, 19. The Roman Catholic Church appeals to
the same text to support its claim that Peter was the first Pope. In these
verses Jesus is quoted as saying to Peter: "And I say unto thee, That thou
art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom
of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in
heaven."

Contrary to your belief, the two words in verse 18, "Peter" and "rock" are not
the same in the original Greek. In the original Greek, "Peter" is "Petros"
which means "stone" and "rock" is "petra". Thus one cannot assume that
Christ is referring to Peter as the basis of His Church. He is possibly referring
to Peter's testimony in verse 16: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living
God." But even if this verse is a reference to the primacy of Peter in the early
Church, there is no proof that he assumed a position which was meant to be
passed on to another apostle after his death. Certainly, nothing in his words
and actions after this encounter resemble that of a Chief Apostle as
understood by the New Apostolic Church"

Not long after that, an "announcement" was made regarding a change in the
understanding of the "power of the keys"...I'm sure you'll remember it!
RudiSt different reasons
Posts: 138 <<Your proposal to change the doctrine of the NAC will never ever be
(2/15/04 7:07)
considered by the NAC leadership.
Reply
Academics like you and some others with common sense are NOT
appreciated by the NAC....>>

KarlSr, we are doing what we have to do for our spiritual home not in the
least for reasons of appreciation, but for an experience that has always
shown us so clearly...
... that with certain guys roughness needs to be matched by roughness in
order that they understand.

To give you but one example:

Where do you think the service-free Sunday afternoon was initiated AND
pushed through in the first place - from the Apostle circle who were indulging
 in their smug and complacent afternoon preachings or from the rank and file
who simply would turn up anymore...?

Right, it may be tiny bits of a "new thinking" that gets sown but if it gets
watered and also has some sunshine, you´ll see that things can grow, even
through the hardest pavements...
... people may be stupid, but most of them can distinguish between a
spiritual Blacksmith and a spiritual father..., and that´s where our trust and
hope is based on.
I wish the same hope for you.
Rudi
KarlSr
Registered User Re: Straight to the point
Posts: 99 I disagree with all of it you gays are nuts.
(2/16/04 3:19) KarlSr
Reply
Re: Straight to the point
BrendaP Instead of disagreeing and telling us we are all nuts, why don't you rather
Administrator
Posts: 2530
offer your views?
(2/16/04 3:55)
Reply You are displaying a "closure of the mind"...is it perhaps because you are set
ezSupporter in your ways?

Just wondering...

Brenda
KarlSr Re: Point 1 Expanded: Abandon Exclusivity
Registered User What is your "open" mind on all of this?
Posts: 100
(2/16/04 5:03)
Reply Why do some people participate in the mockeries of the NAC?
What is the driving force?
For sure NOT the Holy Spirit.

Do you really think this is appropriate?

If yes, no wonder that no one of the NAC will ever

contemplate to answer any of your "loaded" questions.

Some (educated) people might think we are truly stupid;

But we are NOT.
KarlSr
KarlSr Re: Point 1 Expanded: Abandon Exclusivity
Registered User Are you and others trying to run me around in circles?
Posts: 101
(2/16/04 5:25)
Reply I still say that education; if made subject to the Holy Spirit; is what the
members expect from their servants.

I don't care how well the (Pastors) are educated including the PhD’s like Rudi
and some others.

PS
See Jesus when he answered questions from the learned Pharisees, it was
always short and to the point, Oh boy how much they hated him for that.
KarlSr
JF ez
Registered User Re: Straight to the point
Posts: 2475 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings out good things;
(2/16/04 5:51) and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings out evil things.
Reply | Edit Matthew 12:35
KarlSr Re: Straight to the point
Registered User Brenda
Posts: 104
By pointing at me, (this is an old trick) you surely hope that nobody would
(2/18/04 5:37)
Reply look at your comments !?!?!
I have abundantly expressed my views.
Regrettably nobody ever proofed my views wrong, ( omitting the usual
rhetoric of course)
everybody talked around them.
KarlSr
Re: Straight to the point
BrendaP Hi Karl
Administrator
Posts: 2537
(2/18/04 6:49) On page 1 of this thread, Shaquille wrote :
Reply
ezSupporter 1. The NAC should clearly and unambiguously abandon the position of
exclusivity.

2. Effectively implement Christ-centered teaching.

3.Bring women into the ministry and church administration.

4. Reduce reliance on a lay-ministry and introduce professional ministers

with seminary training.

5. Reorganize the national administration so that the Synod is truly

representative of the members, and institute local autonomy.

6. Open all church financial books and records.

Do you agree with any of these points?

Do you agree that only in the NAC can the Holy Spirit be "received" through
the laying on of hands of an apostle?

Do you agree that only NAC's are "God's children"?

Do you agree that only NAC's will form part of the Bride of Christ?

Maybe it will help me to understand you a bit better once you've answered
these questions.

Brenda
KarlSr Re: Straight to the point
Registered User
Posts: 120
Hi Karl
(2/20/04 6:19)
Reply To start Brenda
I am always very suspicious to Yes No lists like this

Mostly they are very carefully designed and contemplated for month with the
purpose to trip some unexpecting member of any organisation. They are
asking my (instant reaction)
This is of course unfair and NOT representative from the start to the NAC
Members.
So I answer the questions with some caveat anyway:

On page 1 of this thread, Shaquille wrote :

 1. The NAC should clearly and unambiguously abandon the position of
exclusivity.

[u]If God initiated this that way; Why should they abandon it?[/u]
2. Effectively implement Christ-centered teaching. \\

See Guidelines for the Adm. (ministers) for the NAC

3.Bring women into the ministry and church administration.

When God ordered it this way then it should be implemented ASAP

4. Reduce reliance on a lay-ministry and introduce professional ministers

with seminary training.
This is a matter of cost and doctrine who of you would guarantee me a better
by the Holy Sprit induced preaching job regarding quality of sermons guided
and inspired by the holy Spirit and not Academia. (=higher learning?)

5. Reorganize the national administration so that the Synod is truly

representative of the members, and institute local autonomy.
The money thing is for many people very important, as to me if they buy
donuts for every dollar I offer is fine to me , I do not offer to people but only
to God. Look at the
Old testament they offered complete 1200 pound oxen to be burned? For
what PURPOSE DID “THOSE NUTS” DO THIS? ;-)

6. Open all church financial b

Are any of the Christian churches doing that already?

Do you agree with any of these points?

This is of course a silly question, Why should I?

Do you agree that only in the NAC can the Holy Spirit be "received" through
the laying on of hands of an apostle?
This is not up to me or anyone else to judge, it is up to God to judge he
ordained it.

Do you agree that only NAC's are "God's children"?

No, this is up to God alone to judge this.

Maybe it will help me to understand you a bit better once you've answered
these questions.
After reading your questions and my answers, I hope you will take me more
serious without prejudgement. ;-)KarlSr

Brenda
JF ez
Registered User Re: Straight to the point
Posts: 2487 The NAC should stop supporting any Super-Nero/Napoleon/Stalin/Hitler!
(2/20/04 6:29)
Reply | Edit
KarlSr Re: Straight to the point
Registered User I propose that Jf.ez refrains from any post when he is drunk
Posts: 123
KarlSr
(2/20/04 7:06)
Reply
JF ez Re: Straight to the point
Registered User JF is not drunk as you suppose, for it is the sixth hour of the day. (at least
Posts: 2490
here in Europe... )
(2/20/04 7:30)
Reply | Edit
vapour123 "Power Of The Keys"...... Re: The way we were
Registered User I do remember this happening, in 1999... I was shocked that the Chief
Posts: 262
Apostle and the Apostles College did change this "Power Of The Keys"... I
(3/1/04 1:21)
Reply was also shocked when the Chief Apostle cancelled USA & Canadian Sunday
Evening 5:00 p.m Services and Saturday evening weekly 7:00 p.m.
"Brother's Meetings"... No more "Brother's Meeting's" -even though
"Brother's Meeting's continue even if on another evening other than Saturday
(I see someone is not in the heart of the Chief Apostle...)

I really do hope, that Shaquille's 6 Points are implemented and put in full
effect, however change in the NAC is very, very slow and in the USA --
Change is almost non-existent...The District Apostle Freund made that very
clear in the Jan. 2004 yearly meeting....'We will NOT CHANGE' !!!.... Maybe
after he retires in a few years...maybe then we might make some
progress.... Until then... keep up the fight, don't give up and keep pushing
for change and reform !!!

Why did the Reformation take Place?

www.biblehelp.org/reform.htm

============
Brenda Wrote:
============

"Some time back, in 1999, the CA was presented with some facts, as follows
:

"Your belief that Peter was the first Chief Apostle is based on an
interpretation of Matthew 16: 18, 19. The Roman Catholic Church appeals to
the same text to support its claim that Peter was the first Pope. In these
verses Jesus is quoted as saying to Peter: "And I say unto thee, That thou
art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom
of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in
 heaven."

Contrary to your belief, the two words in verse 18, "Peter" and "rock" are not
the same in the original Greek. In the original Greek, "Peter" is "Petros"
which means "stone" and "rock" is "petra". Thus one cannot assume that
Christ is referring to Peter as the basis of His Church. He is possibly referring
to Peter's testimony in verse 16: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living
God." But even if this verse is a reference to the primacy of Peter in the early
Church, there is no proof that he assumed a position which was meant to be
passed on to another apostle after his death. Certainly, nothing in his words
and actions after this encounter resemble that of a Chief Apostle as
understood by the New Apostolic Church"

Not long after that, an "announcement" was made regarding a change in the
understanding of the "power of the keys"...I'm sure you'll remember it!"

=====================
=====================
Edited by: vapour123 at: 3/12/04 2:42
vapour123
Registered User Reformation
Posts: 266 www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/i/mightyfo.htm
(3/12/04 2:49) www.stpaulsalbany.org/sou...rtress.htm
Reply
www.webedelic.com/church/fortress.htm

===========================
A MIGHTY FORTRESS IS OUR GOD
===========================
 1.
A mighty fortress is our God,
A bulwark never failing;
Our helper He amid the flood
Of mortal ills prevailing;
For still our ancient foe
Doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and pow'r are great,
And armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not His equal.

2.
Did we in our own strength confide,
Our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side,
The Man of God's own choosing;
Dost ask who that may be?
Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabboth, His name,
From age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.

3.
And tho' this world, with devils filled,
Should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed
His truth to triumph thro' us;
The prince of Darkness grim,
We tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure,
For lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

4.
That word above all earthly pow'rs,
No thanks to them, abideth;
The Spirit and the gifts are ours Thro'
Him who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go,
This mortal life also;
The body they may kill:
God's truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.

======================
======================
Edited by: vapour123 at: 3/12/04 13:01
Author Comment
deaconess
Registered User another power of the "keys"...
Posts: 1891 A Mighty Fortress is Our God...
(3/12/04 13:46)
Reply
Thank you for posting that, Vapour!

While touring the renovated building before the dedication of the Los Angeles
Central Church, the District Apostle Wagner asked for a mini-concert on its
new organ to hear its capabilities. A powerful and dynamic man, I believe he
also felt the might and power of the Lord as his Fortress. He also loved
"powerful" music. I played "A Mighty Fortress" for him while he sat and
 listened in the balcony. He continually beckoned from the gallery to play
louder...... louder.... LOUDER!!!! remarking that he wanted to feel the church
shake. So, I "pulled out all the stops"!

He then came down from the balcony and asked that I play that piece in
exactly the same fashion following the ribbon cutting ceremony. He wanted
those attending the dedication to be greeted with that "power" the instant
the front doors opened.

As I would be seated at the organ during the outside ceremony, he told me

he would knock as a signal that they were about to open the doors.

I waited, and waited....

I heard what I thought was THE "knock", but the door did not open! I
thought, "Oh NO!!!!!!!!! The door must be locked!" So, I ran from the organ
to the front door to let everyone in (not a short distance!) and just as I
arrived, the door started to crack open. I ran back to the organ and jumped
back on the bench... only to find that with it's recent polishing I kept sliding
across it and fell half off of it. Trying to "collect" myself as quickly as
possible, I played the powerful hymn as requested.

Everytime I hear or play that hymn I am reminded of the District Apostle

Wagner and that "eventful" day!

Edited by: deaconess at: 3/12/04 14:01

RudiSt
Posts: 166 reminiscent thoughts...
(3/12/04 16:20) I often asked myself, what would have got out of people like DA Wagner, and
Reply many, many others, had they not been under the ruling of DA Kraus & Co.
(and I would like to bold-face this & Co.)....

Pondering greetings
R/St
OuterStar
Registered User KEYS
Posts: 349 Ah, yes, the power the mighty "Fortress." This is one of my favorite hymns of
(3/13/04 7:01) all-time. The anthem of the Reformation movement still lives and rings loudly
Reply
and clearly today. Martin Luther's wrote this hymn in the midst of a major
break-through process.

Perhaps, the DA Wagner was feeling the need to reform and renew! An early
30,000 lights switch!
vapour123
Registered User Re: another power of the "keys"...
Posts: 273 Hi Deaconess...
(3/17/04 9:34)
Reply
I'm glad that brought back good and exciting memories !!!! ........ I love
this hymn, "A Mighty Fortress is Our God", and I especially love
the verses printed here... I feel that version has the most impact on my
soul...

"A Mighty Fortress Is Our God"

www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/i/mightyfo.htm

The NAC choose to use a different set of verses for that hymn and a harder
to play musical selection for "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" ...... maybe
because everything gets translated from the german in the NAC ??
 I also thought the District Apostle Wagner was on the right track. I believe he
really wanted change and reform here in the North American NAC. He was
very loved and respected by many in our area !!!

Edited by: vapour123 at: 3/26/04 2:14

vapour123
Registered User Glad:The Acapella Project- A Mighty Fortress Is Our God
Posts: 278 Hi Deaconess,
(3/26/04 3:02)
Reply
If you or anyone else haven't already checked this out please do so.... It is
truly an awsome version of "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" and other
Acapella arrangements

Glad: The Acapella Project

glad-pro.com/acap.html
glad-pro.com/index.html
www.worshipmusic.com/8441824452.html
www.singers.com/glad.html

Song Titles: (All Acapella) by Glad

1. A Mighty Fortress
2. In The First Light
3. O for A Thousand Tongues
4. Depending On Your Love
5. Be Thou My Vision
6. Easter Song
7. Be Ye Glad
8. The Reason
9. Amen
10. And This Is Love
11. And Can It Be
12. God is My Rock

The A Cappella Project - 1988

GLAD
Produced by Ed Nalle
Benson Music Group
8441-82445-2/4

Edited by: vapour123 at: 3/26/04 17:31

stonejaden
Registered User Glad
Posts: 9 that is definately a great CD, I HIGHLY recommend it. And probably the
(3/26/04 10:07) pinacle of "A Mighty Fortress" arrangements, is Bach's cantata "Ein Feste
Reply
Burge" BWV 80. Check it out if you haven't!!!
JF ez
Registered User Re: Glad
Posts: 2590 O LORD, my strength and my fortress,
(3/26/04 17:10) and my refuge in the day of affliction.
Reply | Edit The nations shall come to You
from the ends of the earth,
and shall say,
Surely our fathers have inherited lies,
vanity, and there is no profit in them.
Jeremiah 16:19

Meaning their idols, which did not give what their priests, and the abettors of
them, promised; and so deceived their votaries, and disappointed them of
their expectations, which became vain, and so were of no profit and
advantage to them; a poor inheritance this, which they had possessed and
enjoyed for many generations, which their children, now being convinced of,
relinquish; for a false religion is not to be retained on this score, because the
religion of ancestors, and of long possession with them.

Who has formed a god,

or melted a graven image
that is good for nothing?
Isaiah 44:10

vapour123
Registered User Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC
Posts: 282 Getting Back to Reform Ideas.... here is an excellent article I came across
(4/5/04 1:11)
entitled "Reforming The Parish Church" by Mark Ashton .....
Reply

www.reform.org.uk/bb/reforming.html
 Edited by: vapour123 at: 4/5/04 1:14
vapour123 Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the NAC
Registered User
Posts: 299
Here is an excellent article dealing with Shaquille's point #2
(4/15/04 2:38)
Reply "Christ Centered Teaching"

2. Effectively implement Christ-centered teaching. Summary: The

notion of seeking Christ through a close connection with a “blessing bearer”
misleads the children of God and opens the church to the criticism that man
is being placed before Christ. Rules and procedures without spiritual basis
detract from the pure teaching of Christ, cause unnecessary offense, and are
ineffective in bringing the members to a Christ-like nature. The church must
be an expression of Christ and lead all congregants directly to him. Benefits
from this change are greater spirituality among members and ministers, and
less defections among believers turned off by non-spiritual rules.

=======================

We Do Not Preach Ourselves

www.gospelfortoday.org/jt...selves.htm

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto
salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
-Romans 1:16

We Do Not Preach Ourselves

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in
whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving,
that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is
the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord,
and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus sake."
-2 Corinthians 4:3-5

A recent article from Religion Today, an internet news source, reported that
an abortion clinic owner who had "become a Christian" had "left the faith."
The man had been "hailed as a pro-life hero" for trusting in Christ, leaving
his clinic, and moving in with a pastor to be taught more about Christianity.
Today, the former "hero" and anti-abortion speaker now lives with his mother
and refuses to set foot in a church again. What in the world happened?!

Our "hero" explained that he "didn’t want to be involved in Christianity or the

pro-life movement" and that "all the public things I said about how much
love I felt and how people accepted me, that was all lies." The report said
that "he hoped Christianity would become real to him if (he) held on as long
as (he) could," but ended up taking drugs to deal with his guilt and shame.

According to the report, critics charge that the man was "pushed into the
limelight too soon." Pro-Life Action Ministries Director Brain Gibson explained
that this is "an example of what can happen to a ‘hero-convert.’ We in the
pro-life community so desperately want to have things we can point to as
victories that converts have been held up as trophies."

Everybody is looking for a hero or a role model that they can count on to
come through for them with their performance. We see it in the sports world
today that puts overpaid athletes up on pedestal after pedestal seeking to
find the one who will finally perform to perfection, not only on the field but
off.

We see it in the political arena where candidates boldly promote themselves

as the answer to all the nations’ problems. The promises, many if not most
ultimately unfulfilled, flow freely from the mouths of the desperate
candidates in hopes that their equally desperate audience will put their trust
(and vote) in them.

None of this foolishness is new and surely no shocking revelation to you.

What would you expect from the world? But perhaps what is most tragic and
disturbing about this search for the phantom hero or promise-keeper or role
model or moral superman is its 2,000 year old infiltration into the professing
church. It’s as if the foundation of the faith in the minds of many Christians is
no longer the person and completed work of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3:11), but is
instead a morality contest between religions to see whose leaders and
members can out-perform the other for bragging rights among men and
brownie points with God.

Well, guess what? None of this "religious" foolishness is new either! Paul
dealt with this monster back in the first century as well. Why? Because just
like today, the false gospel that was preached by the false prophets was
man-centered and performance- based rather than Christ-centered and faith-
based.

How many pastors, seminary professors, authors, bible study leaders,

ministries, evangelists, radio personalities, even men and women
documented in the Scriptures, have been elevated to a position of fantastic
prominence by their underlings and/or by themselves? For many in the body
of Christ, one or all of these individuals and organizations have become the
primary object of their faith. It is not unusual to hear Christians more willing,
able, and passionate to defend their denomination, church, pastor, social
reform projects, favorite ministry, or televangelist than they are to defend
the gospel by which they have been saved!

Friends, you and I have been given "the ministry of reconciliation, namely,
that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their
trespasses against them" (2 Cor. 5:18-19). We, like Paul, do not, must not,
preach ourselves! We are not the topic of the gospel, nor is anyone else no
matter how ""Christ-like" their actions and deeds appear to be. Drawing
attention to our "good deeds" and covering up our "bad deeds" does not
serve to bring glory to our Savior. It brings glory to ourselves, it preaches
ourselves, it preaches our works-oriented flesh… and even a lost man can do
that! By all means, let’s love one another and seek to act in a way that is
profitable in our relationships with one another but that is not the gospel.
Jesus Christ, and the work He has already accomplished via the cross, is the
gospel we preach. If not, then we are "deserting Him who called (us) by the
grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another" (Gal. 1:6-
7).

My role, and yours, as a messenger of the gospel is not to model for others
what a real "man or woman of God" should act like. Our primary role is to
consistently, passionately, and exclusively proclaim the finished work of Jesus
Christ for salvation…in spite of our inability to always behave in a "godly
manner!" No individual described in the word of God, never mind any who
have come along since then, ever attained righteousness through their
behavior, "not even one" (Rom. 3:10). The Scriptures testify backwards,
forwards, sideways, and always that there is only one way…Jesus Christ (Acts
16:31; Rom. 3:21-22). You see, if we are talking about "pass(ing) out of
death into life" (John 5:24), there is only One man who can pull that off for
you and me and He has done it! He is the Hero and the Promise-keeper! He
is our justifier, sanctifier, righteousness, redeemer, forgiver, reconciler, and
very life!

How many of us have placed our faith in the messenger rather than the
message? In many cases, the messenger perpetuates this problem by
preaching a gospel of morality and performance rather than "contend(ing)
earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude
3). When someone teaches a message of law-keeping or living by the rules,
they themselves are immediately placed under a microscope by the listeners
from that point forward. He is inspected and carefully watched by all to see if
he will slip up. And when he does, which he will, those who have placed their
confidence in him will react in anger, judgment, and disgust because they will
feel duped and deceived. Many will even have been said to have "left the
faith." I submit to you that you can’t leave something you’ve never entered
into and that those who "leave the faith" are really leaving what they entered
into initially…religion and its works.

No ministry, including this one, is to become the object of your faith. We, like
anyone else, will let you down in some way. We will blow it. Our flesh will
rear its’ ugly head at some point and you will be disappointed. But, praise
God, we do not preach ourselves. We "preach the gospel, not in cleverness of
speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void" (1 Cor. 17). The
behaviors, actions, and deeds of others are not where your faith is to be
placed. It is to be placed in the Person of Christ and His finished work as
testified to in the word of God.

The Living New Testament, a paraphrase and not a translation, interprets

Paul to be saying in 2 Corinthians 4:5 that "we don’t go around preaching
about ourselves, but about Christ Jesus as Lord." We do not preach ourselves
because we have nothing to offer any man, but we do preach Christ because
He has everything to offer all men. We do not preach ourselves because "I
 know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh" (Romans 7:18 ) ,
but we do preach Christ because "if Christ is in you, though the body is dead
because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Romans
8:10). We do not preach ourselves because "by the works of the Law no flesh
will be justified in His sight" (Romans 3:20), but we do preach Christ because
"to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,
his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Romans 4:5). We do not preach
ourselves because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
(Romans 3:23), but we do preach Christ because "He made Him who knew
no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of
God in Him" (2 Cor. 5:21) We do not preach ourselves because "he who
speaks from himself seeks his own glory" (John 7:18 ) , but we do preach
Christ because in Him "I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining
to God" (Romans 15:17).

In Cornelius R. Stam’s Commentary on Second Corinthians (p.77), he

reminds us that "Paul did not preach himself, much less ask others to be
good and do good to make themselves acceptable to God. No, his constant
theme was Christ and His all-sufficient satisfaction for sin." Our hope is not
found in the good works or bad works of our pastor, Sunday school leader,
husband, wife, favorite athlete, friends, family, political candidates, Billy
Graham, Moses, David, Paul, ourselves, or anyone else. Our hope is found in
the finished work of the risen Jesus Christ through the cross!

We are not to be looking at the actions and deeds of others we have foolishly
put on a pedestal (or who have put themselves there), but rather we are to
be "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the
joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat
down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2). Why has he
"sat down at the right hand of the Father?" Because His saving work is done!
No works or deeds that we do or don’t do could ever bring our dead spirits
back to life. Only our loving God can perform that miracle..and that is why
we do not preach ourselves!

Love,

John Moneypenny

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Edited by: vapour123 at: 4/15/04 3:04
JF ez Re: Six Reforms Necessary for the Long Term Viability of the
Registered User In those days shall the mighty and the kings who possess the earth implore
Posts: 2633
Him to grant them a little respite from His angels of punishment to whom
(4/15/04 4:54)
Reply | Edit they were delivered, that they might fall down and worship before the Lord
of hosts, and confess their sins before Him. And they shall bless and glorify
the Lord of hosts, and say:

' Blessed is the Lord of hosts and the Lord of kings,

And the Lord of the mighty and the Lord of the rich,
And the Lord of glory and the Lord of wisdom,
And splendid in every secret thing is Thy power from generation to
generation,
And Thy glory for ever and ever:
Deep are all Thy secrets and innumerable,
And Thy righteousness is beyond reckoning.
We have now learnt that we should glorify
And bless the Lord of kings and Him who is king over all kings.'
 And they shall say:

' Would that we had rest to glorify and give thanks

And confess our faith before His glory !
And now we long for a little rest but find it not:
We follow hard upon and obtain it not:
And light has vanished from before us,
And darkness is our dwelling-place for ever and ever:
For we have not believed before Him
Nor glorified the name of the Lord of hosts, [nor glorified our Lord]
But our hope was in the sceptre of our kingdom,
And in our glory.
And in the day of our suffering and tribulation He saves us not,
And we find no respite for confession
That our Lord is true in all His works, and in His judgements and His justice,
And His judgements have no respect of persons.
And we pass away from before His face on account of our works,
And all our sins are reckoned up in righteousness.'

Now they shall say unto themselves: ' Our souls are full of unrighteous gain,
but it does not prevent us from descending from the midst thereof into the
burden of Sheol.'

And after that their faces shall be filled with darkness

And shame before that Son of Man,
And they shall be driven from his presence,
And the sword shall abide before his face in their midst.

Thus spake the Lord of hosts: ' This is the ordinance and judgement with
respect to the mighty and the kings and the exalted and those who possess
the earth before the Lord of hosts.'
Laura Christ-Centered: It is finished
Registered User Thanks for that post Vapes!
Posts: 627
(4/15/04 8:55)
Reply