April 14, 2008

Top of Form 1
Date: 04/14/2008
Session: Regular
1410
1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE
4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD
9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 April 14, 2008
11 3:07 p.m.
12
13
14 REGULAR SESSION
15
16
17
18 SENATOR ELIZABETH O'C. LITTLE, Acting President
19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary
20
21
22
23
24
25
Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The
3 Senate will come to order.
4 I ask everyone present to please
5 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of
6 Allegiance.
7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited
8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
10 invocation today will be given by the Reverend
11 Peter G. Young, of Mother Theresa Community in
12 Albany.
13 REVEREND YOUNG: Thank you,
14 Senator.
15 As we share the prayer today, I ask
16 you to look above this podium at the stained
17 glass window. It's the state seal that has
18 been expressing "Excelsior" -- "ever upward."
19 It is replacing the place of the crown in
20 1777. Lady Liberty, with a peasant cap
21 representing democracy, has her left foot
22 stepping on the crown, representing the
23 rejection of royalty.
24 As citizens of the Empire State, we
25 have been the leader with our constitution,

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1 12 years before the federal Constitution.
2 As a national leader, You have
3 given these Senators a great power and
4 responsibility. Now may we pray that they
5 will always work in Your image and in Your
6 honor for all of our New York State citizens.
7 Amen.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank
9 you, Father Young.
10 Reading of the Journal.
11 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
12 Sunday, April 13, the Senate met pursuant to
13 adjournment. The Journal of Saturday,
14 April 12, was read and approved. On motion,
15 Senate adjourned.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Without
17 objection, the Journal stands approved as
18 read.
19 Presentation of petitions.
20 Messages from the Assembly.
21 Messages from the Governor.
22 Reports of standing committees.
23 Reports of select committees.
24 Communications and reports from
25 state officers.

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1 Motions and resolutions.

2 Senator Farley.
3 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you,
4 Madam President.
5 On behalf of my seatmate here,
6 Senator Seward, on page 24 I offer the
7 following amendments to Calendar Number 341,
8 Senate Print 5775, and I ask that that bill
9 retain its place on the Third Reading
10 Calendar.
12 amendments are received and adopted, and the
13 bill will retain its place on the Third
14 Reading Calendar.
15 SENATOR FARLEY: Madam President,
16 on behalf of Senator Bonacic, I have a motion
17 to amend a bill which was recalled from the
18 Assembly. And I wish to call up Senator
19 Bonacic's bill, Print Number 6903. It's
20 recalled from the Assembly, and it's now at
21 your desk.
23 Secretary will read.
24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
25 522, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 6903, an

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1 act to amend the Highway Law.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator
3 Farley.

5 I now move to reconsider the vote by which
6 this bill was passed.
8 Secretary will call the roll on
9 reconsideration of the vote.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 32.
13 I now offer the following amendments.
15 amendments are received.
16 Senator Skelos.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
18 I believe there's a substitution at the desk.
19 If we could make it at this time.
21 Secretary will read the substitution.
22 THE SECRETARY: On page 29,
23 Senator Alesi moves to discharge, from the
24 Committee on Investigations and Government
25 Operations, Assembly Bill Number 9906 and

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1 substitute it for the identical Senate Bill
2 Number 6883, Third Reading Calendar 435.
4 substitution is ordered.
5 Senator Skelos.
7 there's a resolution at the desk by Senator

8 Maziarz, 5220. If we could have the title
9 read and move for its immediate adoption.
11 Secretary will read.
12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
13 Maziarz, Legislative Resolution Number 5220,
14 paying tribute to the New York State Alliance
15 of Boys and Girls Clubs 2008 Youths of the
16 Year.
18 Maziarz.
19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very
20 much, Madam President.
21 It's a great honor for me to stand
22 today before my colleagues and recognize these
23 outstanding young women and men from across
24 New York State who are active in their local
25 boys and girls clubs.

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1 This celebration has been going on
2 for over 75 years, and it recognizes
3 outstanding youth who demonstrate leadership
4 skills, academic success, and a willingness to
5 serve their community.
6 Each year thousands of young people
7 who are active in their local boys and girls
8 clubs compete within their own organizations
9 for Youth of the Year, and then they all
10 gather here in Albany for two days. And out

11 of all of these outstanding youth, the boys
12 and girls clubs from across the state will
13 recognize an outstanding young person across
14 the entire state. That will be announced
15 tomorrow at the luncheon in the Well of the
16 LOB which you are all invited to.
17 And I just want to welcome them
18 here today to Albany. I was very active in
19 the Boys and Girls Clubs of the Tonawandas.
20 And I often say, being one of nine children in
21 the Maziarz family, if there was any
22 organization that was more responsible for me
23 getting elected to the New York State Senate
24 at the age of 40, it was the Vandervoort
25 Street Boys and Girls Club in the city of

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1 North Tonawanda.
2 So congratulations to all of you.
3 Congratulations on behalf of all of my
4 colleagues from across the state.
5 Thank you, Madam President.
7 you, Senator Maziarz.
8 On the resolution, all those in
9 favor signify by saying aye.
10 (Response of "Aye.")
11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Those
12 opposed, nay.
13 (No response.)
15 resolution is passed.
16 Congratulations, and thank you for
17 being here.
18 Senator Skelos.
20 there will be an immediate meeting of the
21 Rules Committee in the Majority Conference
22 Room.
23 The Senate will stand at ease.
25 you. There's an immediate meeting of the

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1 Rules Committee in the Majority Conference
2 Room.
3 The Senate stands at ease.
4 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at
5 ease at 3:14 p.m.)
6 (Whereupon, the Senate reconvened
7 at 3:18 p.m.)
9 Skelos.
11 if we could go to the noncontroversial reading
12 of the calendar.
14 you. The Secretary will read.
16 116, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 327, an

17 act to repeal paragraph (f) of subdivision 4
18 of Section 209 of the Civil Service Law.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Read
20 the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Call
24 the roll.

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3 bill is passed.
5 158, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2337, an
6 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules,
7 in relation to service of process.
9 the last section.
11 act shall take effect on the 180th day.
13 the roll.
17 bill is passed.
19 175, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 645A, an

20 act to amend the Lien Law, in relation to
21 authorizing a lien.

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2 the roll.
6 bill is passed.
8 433, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 5224, an
9 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control
10 Law, in relation to form of notification.
16 the roll.
20 bill is passed.
22 435, substituted earlier today by Member of

23 the Assembly Schimminger, Assembly Print
24 Number 9906, an act to amend Chapter 391 of
25 the Laws of 2007.

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2 the last section.
6 the roll.
10 bill is passed.
12 472, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 864, an
13 act to amend the Uniform Commercial Code, in
14 relation to deeming goods.
20 the roll.
24 bill is passed.

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1 616, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 5138A, an
2 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
3 provisions.
5 the last section.
9 the roll.
13 bill is passed.
15 683, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print
16 4037, an act to amend the New York City Civil
17 Court Act, in relation to filing of commercial
18 claims.
24 the roll.

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3 bill is passed.
5 684, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print
6 4038, an act to amend the New York City Civil
7 Court Act, in relation to filing of commercial
8 claims.
14 the roll.
18 bill is passed.
20 688, by Senator Seward --
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for
22 the day, please.
24 bill is laid aside for the day.

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1 700, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 1236, an
2 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
3 relation to the age of driver's license
4 photographs.
6 the last section.
8 act shall take effect one year after it shall
9 have become law.
11 the roll.
15 bill is passed.
17 702, by Senator Winner, Senate Print 3237, an
18 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to
19 authorizing county highway superintendents.
25 the roll.

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4 bill is passed.
6 704, by Senator Lanza, Senate Print 3682, an
7 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to

8 transferring certain land.
14 the roll.
18 bill is passed.
20 710, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3659, an
21 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
22 the practice of interior design.

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1 act shall take effect one year after the date
2 on which it shall have become law.
4 the roll.
8 bill is passed.
9 Senator Skelos, that completes the
10 reading of the noncontroversial calendar.

11 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you,
12 Madam President. If we could return to
13 reports of standing committees for the report
14 of the Rules Committee.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Reports
16 of standing committees.
17 The Secretary will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
19 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
20 following bills:
21 Senate Print 7521, by Senator
22 Robach, an act to amend the Labor Law;
23 And Senate Print 7551, by Senator
24 Skelos, an act to amend Chapter 20 of the Laws
25 of 2006.

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1 Both bills ordered direct to third
2 reading.
4 Skelos.
6 move to accept the report of the Rules
7 Committee.
9 you. All those in favor of accepting the
10 Rules Committee report please signify by
11 saying aye.
12 (Response of "Aye.")
13 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Those

14 opposed, nay.
15 (No response.)
17 Rules report is accepted.
18 Senator Skelos.
20 if we could take up the Rules Committee report
21 at this time, noncontroversial.
25 805, by Senator Robach, Senate Print --

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1 SENATOR DUANE: Lay it aside,
2 please.
4 bill is laid aside.
6 806, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 7551, an
7 act to amend Chapter 20 of the Laws of 2006,
8 amending the Real Property Tax Law.
14 the roll.

18 bill is passed.
19 Senator Skelos.
21 if we could take up Calendar Number 805,
22 controversial.
23 If we could ring the bells first to
24 get the members into the chamber.

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1 you. The Secretary will ring the bell.
2 The Secretary will read.
4 805, by Senator Robach, Senate Print 7521, an
5 act to amend the Labor Law.
6 SENATOR DUANE: Explanation,
7 please.
9 you. Senator Robach, for an explanation.
10 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, Madam
11 President.
12 This bill is a bill to address a
13 pay equity issue in the state, something I
14 think that probably everyone would agree on.
15 What the two major components of
16 this bill are is, one, a study to be done by
17 an outside agency -- not self-patrolling by
18 the businesses themselves, if you will, but
19 the Labor Department -- to quantify, review,

20 look at where we're at on that, the first
21 major component.
22 And then the second component,
23 maybe equally as important, if not more
24 important, is to increase the penalties for
25 something that shouldn't be going on at any

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1 level or any percentage, whether we're one,
2 two, three, or four. Whether New York has a
3 good performance on pay equity compared to
4 other issues is really inconsequential.
5 To do all we can to stamp it out,
6 send a clear message that in this state
7 gender, any other reason, should not dictate
8 pay, we are increasing both the civil
9 penalties -- doubling them, as a matter of
10 fact -- for those violators right now today,
11 and also increasing the criminal penalties as
12 well, even greater than doubling them, raising
13 them from $1,000 up to $20,000 in, again, an
14 attempt to set the record straight, do what we
15 can on a pay equity issue.
16 And the only other thing that I
17 would add is this is something that's been
18 talked about for some time and, having the
19 privilege of being the new Labor chair, I said
20 that I would try to address. I think this
21 bill goes to that in both a direct and
22 beneficial manner for the working people of

23 New York State.

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1 you.
2 Senator C. Johnson.
3 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank
4 you, Madam President. Will Senator Robach
5 yield for a question.
6 SENATOR ROBACH: I certainly
7 will.
9 you. Senator Robach yields.
10 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank you
11 very much, Madam President. Through you.
12 Senator Robach, when did you
13 introduce this piece of legislation?
14 SENATOR ROBACH: I don't know the
15 exact date, Senator Johnson. Fairly recently.
16 As I said in my opening remarks,
17 while this has been something that has been
18 critically important to me in my career, and a
19 lot of other labor issues, as the newly
20 appointed chairman of the Labor Committee I'm
21 trying to take a more aggressive role in
22 regard to this issue as well as many others.
24 you. Will the Senator continue to yield for a
25 question.
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1 SENATOR ROBACH: Certainly.
3 you. Senator Robach continues to yield,
4 Senator Johnson.
6 you.
7 For the record, to my
8 understanding, I have a copy of the
9 legislation that was presented before us. The
10 introduction date or the date of the bill is
11 April 9, 2008.
12 And I congratulate you on your
13 appointment to chairman of the Labor
14 Committee.
15 Before you introduced this piece of
16 legislation, have you introduced any other
17 legislation in connection with pay equity
18 issues?
19 SENATOR ROBACH: This is the bill
20 I've introduced that I think would address the
21 issue most beneficially. This is it.
22 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Okay,
23 Thank you.
24 SENATOR ROBACH: You have it.

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1 you.
2 Madam President, will Senator
3 Robach continue to yield for a question.
5 you. Senator Robach, do you continue to
6 yield?
7 SENATOR ROBACH: I will.
9 Robach continues to yield.
11 you, Madam President.
12 And as chairman of the Labor
13 Committee, you are aware or are made aware by
14 your counsel of other bills that are referred
15 to your committee by Senators, whether they
16 are Majority Senators or Minority Senators?
17 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, that's
18 true. Probably representing thousands of
19 bills that are introduced each year by our
20 collective colleagues. That's true.
21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Will the
22 Senator continue to yield for a question.
25 yield?

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1 SENATOR ROBACH: Certainly.
3 you. Senator Robach continues to yield,
4 Senator Johnson.
6 you, Senator Robach.
7 I would love, actually, to get the
8 list of the thousands of bills that are
9 referred to the Senate Labor Committee, to
10 your committee, because obviously it sounds
11 like a lot. But I'll ask you about one
12 particular bill.
13 SENATOR ROBACH: I didn't say
14 referred. I thought you said introduced,
15 excuse me.
16 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Referred.
17 Referred.
18 But I will go to a bill that has
19 been referred to your committee. It's Senate
20 Number 3936, sponsored actually by myself.
21 Are you aware of that bill, which is entitled
22 the New York State Fair Pay Act?
23 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes.
24 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Madam
25 President, will the Senator continue to yield

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1 for a question.
4 yield?
5 SENATOR ROBACH: I do.
7 you. The Senator yields.

9 you.
10 And are you aware, Senator Robach,
11 that that piece of legislation was introduced
12 in the Senate on March 20, 2007, and then
13 immediately referred to the Labor Committee?
14 SENATOR ROBACH: Senator Johnson,
15 let me say this. I'm happy for whatever your
16 work is. The bill before us is this one. I
17 felt this was the best way to address the
18 issue.
19 Again, I do look at a lot of the
20 bills that are there. At the end of the day,
21 what I have to come up with on behalf of my
22 constituents, groups across the state I've
23 talked to, working men and women in my
24 district -- which I will admit to you
25 publicly, sometimes I give top preference

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1 to -- I then determine what's the best way to
2 address this issue.
3 Clearly -- I'll say it again as I
4 did in the opening remarks -- I think that
5 outside agencies, not businesses
6 self-policing, is a better way to go. And I
7 think you have to put real teeth into it, with
8 some real consequences for those people even
9 today who are not following existing law and
10 rules. That's what I've attempted to do.

11 That's the bill we're on. I
12 noticed that most of your colleagues have
13 supported it in committee, as well as the
14 AFL-CIO and many other organizations.
15 Hopefully we'll get this passed.
16 Assemblywoman Mayersohn, a champion
17 for infants, children and others, is putting
18 this in in the Assembly. I did not stick to
19 party affiliation; I did this in a bipartisan
20 way to try and get the best result, get a bill
21 passed we can get to the Governor to address
22 this important issue. That's simply what I
23 tried to do.
25 you. Could we have it a little quieter in the

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1 chamber, please, so the speakers can be heard.
2 Thank you. Senator Johnson.
4 you, Madam President. Will Senator Robach
10 you, Senator Robach. Just trying to get more
11 of a procedural understanding here.
12 As I indicated on March 20, 2007,
13 my New York State Fair Pay Act was referred to

14 your committee. It was rereferred on January
15 9th. Are you aware that on April 3, 2008, we
16 filed a -- Minority counsel filed a notice of
17 motion to petition to discharge this bill on
18 April 3, 2008, six days before you -- five
19 days or, I'm sorry, six days before you
20 actually introduced this piece of legislation?
21 SENATOR ROBACH: I reluctantly --
22 I don't want to hurt your feelings. I wasn't
23 aware of that.
24 Again, I operate as openly and
25 publicly as I can. You know, my goal is to

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1 get a result. That's what I'm trying to do --
2 not even get credit specifically for myself,
3 trying to get the best bill out there. That's
4 what it's about for me.
6 you. Senator Johnson.
8 President, will Senator Robach continue to
12 yield?
13 SENATOR ROBACH: I do if there's
14 a question that's germane to this bill, not
15 somebody else's bill or some other different
16 issue.
17 Because in all due respect to your
18 colleagues on that side of the aisle, and
19 mine, I'm happy to answer any question that
20 has to do with this bill. I'd love to. If
21 it's not, perhaps we could talk afterwards on
22 what credit you're getting or not getting.
24 you. Senator Johnson, Senator Robach will
25 continue to yield for questions on this bill

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1 that is before us at the present time.
2 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sure. On
3 this bill.
4 What's the rush for this bill? Why
5 move it quickly today through your Labor
6 Committee and then immediately through Rules
7 and bring it on the calendar today, when on
8 April 3rd you were told -- or the Labor
9 Committee and your counsel, I'm sure, realized
10 that a note of petition was put on the
11 calendar to petition a bill -- actually, my
12 bill -- for tomorrow? So what's the rush
13 today to put your study bill on?
14 SENATOR ROBACH: You know why?
15 Because my mother taught me many years ago why
16 put off what you can today.
17 And that's why we're doing it,
18 because it's an important issue -- I don't
19 mean to make light of it -- for the men and

20 women of New York. And I've worked with a lot
21 of groups who have now come and been focused
22 on this issue, and we're really trying to be
23 responsive and, again, get a result, get
24 something we can get passed through both
25 houses that will address the issue in the best

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1 way I know how.
2 Hopefully you and my colleagues
3 will agree with that and vote for it at the
4 end of the day.
7 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Yes,
8 Madam President. Will Senator Robach continue
9 to yield for a question.
10 SENATOR ROBACH: Sure.
12 Senator yields.
14 you. Senator Robach, a question on the bill,
15 which I'm sure you want to have.
16 SENATOR ROBACH: I do.
17 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: You
18 referenced that the bill is to address, first
19 component -- I'm talking about the civil
20 penalty portion -- the civil penalties it
21 talks about, it raises. And you've amended it
22 from $500 to $1,000 as a penalty on an

23 employer.
24 And it goes, on line 4 of the bill:
25 "employees or shall differentiate in rate of

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1 pay, because of sex." And then it goes on "as
2 provided in this article, shall forfeit to the
3 people."
4 Why didn't you include language
5 such as national origin and/or race? Under
6 your legislation, would your legislation fine
7 a business that discriminates in terms of
8 wages because of somebody's status as a
9 minority or because of their national origin?
10 SENATOR ROBACH: Good question.
11 All's we did was taking the existing language
12 in New York and increase the penalty. Good
13 point. That doesn't mean at some time we
14 couldn't expand that further.
15 But what we did was focus on
16 existing law, increasing the penalties. Which
17 again I think is a good step in the right
18 direction.
21 yield for a question?
24 yield?

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2 Senator yields.
4 you. I think that's why we shouldn't rush
5 this process. The legislation, of course,
6 that I have -- and we'll talk about it at
7 length tomorrow, or at least what I'm
8 permitted to talk about -- addresses these
9 issues. By rushing it through, we forgot a
10 particular component.
11 So maybe the better course of
12 action is to pull this out, pull back the bill
13 and start addressing these particular things
14 so something like this particular provision,
15 just talking about the civil penalty
16 provision, can be addressed appropriately.
17 But for my next questions I want to
18 refer now, I guess, to the underlying focus.
19 SENATOR ROBACH: I didn't get
20 that. What was the first question?
21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: No, I'm
22 getting to the question. I'm referencing what
23 you said, Senator Robach. Thank you.
24 But I'm getting now to the point
25 of, I guess, the crux of your bill, which is

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1 to commission, I guess, a study. Is that

2 correct?
3 SENATOR ROBACH: Department of
4 Labor to research and study, correct. The
5 last one wasn't done except in 1985. To not
6 only out people and find them, who they might
7 be, along with any other government entity,
8 but also to be able to quantify where we're at
9 and the scope of the issue, correct.
13 Robach, will you continue to yield?
16 Senator does continue to yield.
18 so much.
19 Senator Robach, are you aware of
20 any of the results of that study?
21 SENATOR ROBACH: I am. I have it
22 right here.
23 There's actually two studies that
24 were kind of germane that covered the country,
25 one in New York and one done in California.

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1 Which I guess I'll give you the good news and
2 bad news. Obviously, for an issue like this,
3 we'd like to have findings that have no
4 discrimination of any kind. But the good news

5 is compared to the other 50 states, I believe
6 we were number four in compliance with not
7 discriminating against people in the workplace
8 on the pay equity issue. Which overall, I
9 guess, was surprising to some people.
10 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Would the
13 you. Senator Robach, will you continue to
14 yield?
17 Senator yields.
19 you.
20 Are you aware, Senator Robach,
21 though, that notwithstanding those studies
22 there's nothing in the law that mandates
23 state, counties, cities, school districts to
24 actually provide for pay equity in line with
25 the results from that study?

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1 Meaning a study came out, but it
2 has no teeth. If I choose not to abide by
3 that study, there's no consequence.
4 SENATOR ROBACH: Well, actually,
5 I think -- well, I would answer it in two
6 ways.
7 I think part of what you're saying

8 is inaccurate. Certainly when it comes to
9 county government, state government, anything
10 covered by civil service, we have pay equity
11 by title regardless of someone's origin,
12 sexual orientation, currently under the law in
13 those pay brackets. So it wouldn't apply to
14 government.
15 I think in the private sector, it's
16 been harder to quantify. And our study
17 absolutely incorporates the Department of
18 Labor to look at the entire scope as well as
19 work in collaboration with the AG or anybody
20 else we can, to make sure those fines are
21 given out to anyone who wouldn't be in
22 compliance.
23 Again, this goes a long way to
24 improving where we're at, where we're going
25 to, more -- regardless of any study, I guess

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1 is the point I'm trying to make.
3 you. Senator Johnson --
4 SENATOR ROBACH: I'm aware of
5 those things, but again, this is more -- maybe
6 this will answer all your questions.
7 The reason for this bill, the
8 timing, everything else, is twofold. One,
9 need. One, I believe it is a very good piece
10 of legislation. And, three, it really is

11 relevant. I made a pledge to people in
12 groups --
14 Skelos -- excuse me, Senator Robach.
15 Senator Skelos.
17 if I could just rise for a moment, it's my
18 understanding that a staff individual is
19 filming the debate from the floor.
20 I would suggest to the entire
21 Senate that that's inappropriate to be
22 conducted from the Senate floor. One of
23 Senator Smith's staff people. So I would
24 suggest that stop and that we do not do that.
25 SENATOR ROBACH: Actually,

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1 Senator Skelos, let me fix my tie if they're
2 filming. I would like to look good. And then
3 let me finish.
4 This really is just about me trying
5 to challenge whatever system there is to get a
6 result, obviously working with everyone. But
7 I have been out speaking about this issue long
8 before you were in the Senate, long before a
9 lot of other things. Again, trying to live up
10 to that pledge, get something done. My policy
11 has always been when you have something good,
12 the quicker you can get it done the better.
13 I've been very proud of a very

14 results-oriented time here in the Senate in my
15 six years. That will not stop, regardless of
16 your opinion on the bill, whatever else you've
17 done. Or anybody else's, for that matter. So
18 don't take it personally. This is just to try
19 and get the bill done.
25 SENATOR ROBACH: Sure.

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3 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I take no
4 offense whatsoever. I think it's important,
5 it's healthy -- I think it's healthy for us to
6 debate. Because as you clearly know and as my
7 colleagues know, I am a strong supporter of
8 pay equity, given the fact that I am the
9 sponsor of the New York State law that would
10 require, statutorily require employers to
11 provide pay equity.
12 And your bill is what I'll just
13 call a study bill. Besides the civil
14 component of the penalties, it's a study bill.
15 SENATOR ROBACH: And criminal
16 penalties.
17 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: And
18 criminal penalties. I stand corrected.
19 Criminal penalties, of course.
20 I raise the issue about the
21 effectiveness of a study because in my study,
22 so to speak, I had the privilege of reading
23 from Lois Haignere, who actually did the
24 research behind the New York State
25 comparable-worth study that was done in 1985.

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1 And what she noted was while certainly, when
2 it came to -- there were certain good worth
3 adjustments when it came to particular titles,
4 the fact is, according to her -- and she is an
5 expert -- many counties, cities and school
6 districts did not make the adjustments based
7 on the report and have not done so since 1987.
8 And so my concern is is that, you
9 know, a report, while it sounds important,
10 doesn't bring relief now.
11 Now to my question, because I'm
12 required to pose a question. You cite, I
13 believe, in the memo in support two studies.
14 Is that correct?
15 SENATOR ROBACH: Mm-hmm.
16 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'm
17 sorry, I didn't hear the answer.
18 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, I'm sorry.

24 yield?

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4 you.
5 Senator Robach, are you aware that
6 the United States Department of Labor, since
7 2003, the federal Department of Labor has
8 conducted -- let's see -- one, two, three
9 separate studies on pay equity, the most
10 recent being May 2007?
11 SENATOR ROBACH: I've had some
12 dialogue with staff on that.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Yes,
16 Senator Robach, do you continue to yield?
19 Senator continues to yield, Senator Johnson.
21 you.
22 And what was the result of that

23 dialogue? How did they convince you that
24 another study by our state was required when
25 Elaine Chao, Secretary of Labor, has authored

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1 a very comprehensive, hundreds-of-pages study
2 already on this particular issue?
3 SENATOR ROBACH: I think that --
4 you call it a study, I would call it a study
5 and review.
6 I think this would be specific for
7 New York State, which would not only quantify
8 data but also simultaneously maybe will fine
9 offenders, apply the increased fines that this
10 bill will do, that I assume you're going to
11 vote for, and really be a multitrack way again
12 to address the pay equity issue.
13 So I think you're underestimating
14 what I'm saying should be done by the
15 Department of Labor. Many people have made
16 different suggestions to me. Some people
17 thought it should be self-policed. I don't
18 think that would work. I think we need a
19 comprehensive study done by an outside agency,
20 a government agency, our Department of Labor,
21 in conjunction with the AG when there's an
22 issue, to really go to hopefully what is a
23 small percentage of people who may be
24 violating this as employers.

(518) 371-8910
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1 Johnson.
3 you. Will Senator Robach continue to yield
4 for a question?
7 you. The Senator continues to yield.
9 you, Senator Robach. I appreciate that.
10 So I'm assuming that in addition to
11 these two extensive studies done by the U.S.
12 Department of Labor, I would assume that the
13 Department of Labor will also then look at the
14 Department of Commerce's findings in 2004 that
15 detailed the earnings by occupation for men
16 and women. Or the study by the Institute of
17 Women's Policy Research, 2004, "Still a Man's
18 Labor Market: A Long-Term Earnings Gap."
19 Another study done in 2005 by the AAUP, which
20 stands for the American Association of
21 University Professors, entitled "Gains in
22 Learning, Gaps in Earning." A study in 2006
23 by the AAUP, "Faculty Gender Equity
24 Indicators." Institute for Women's Policy
25 Research, another outside institute. A

(518) 371-8910
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1 briefing paper, "The Best and Worst State

2 Economies for Women."
3 How about this one, the National
4 Committee for Pay Equity, which updates their
5 research every year, which sets forth the wage
6 gap in New York State. How about the AAUW,
7 which says "Behind the Pay Gap," a study done
8 in 2004. How about this -- oh, another U.S.
9 Department of Labor --
11 Johnson, do you have a question?
12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I do.
13 But I want to get through my question.
14 And the U.S. Department of Labor,
15 "Highlights of Women's Earnings in 2006."
16 Senator Robach, my question is
17 study after study after study after study
18 after study -- why not introduce a bill right
19 now to make it statutorily prohibited to ban
20 the discrimination of pay between women and
21 men? Why another study bill?
22 SENATOR ROBACH: Well, I think
23 that my goal is obviously to outlaw, increase
24 the penalties. It's already on the books as
25 something that you cannot do, aren't supposed

(518) 371-8910
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1 to do. This increases the penalties for what
2 already exists and would have an outside
3 organization rather than an internal one,
4 specifically for New York, quantify that data,

5 turn that information over to the right
6 authorities to do all possible to stop the
7 practice.
8 Again, I think this is a very
9 appropriate way to approach it. The AFL-CIO
10 supports it. Many of the groups you've cited
11 in your studies, I've also met with at least
12 local chapters and they support it as well.
13 I think you want to underestimate
14 and call this a simple study to quantify the
15 data with no other follow steps. This is not
16 accurate. We're not reinventing the wheel
17 here, we're quantifying the data and
18 requesting that it be turned over to the right
19 people, coupled with the second part of the
20 bill on civil and criminal penalties for those
21 that violate it.

(518) 371-8910
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1 you. Senator Robach, do you continue to yield
2 to Senator Johnson?
5 the Senator continues to yield.

8 When did you meet with the Business
9 Council, the AFL-CIO and these other various
10 groups to discuss your piece of legislation?
11 SENATOR ROBACH: I meet with them
12 regularly on an ongoing basis. That has just
13 been a regular occurrence for me.
14 And oftentimes, rather than tell
15 them what I want, I listen to what they're
16 after and then try to put it into bill form
17 when needed. That's exactly what occurred
18 with this piece of legislation right here,
19 Senate Bill 7521.

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1 you. Senator Robach --
2 SENATOR ROBACH: I'll take one
3 more question.
5 Robach will continue to yield for one more
6 question.
7 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'd
8 better make it a big doozy, then.
9 Senator Robach, if all these
10 entities support your legislation -- the

11 Business Council, the New York State
12 AFL-CIO -- where are their -- I don't have in
13 front of me, and unless somebody can provide
14 it, where are the memorandums in support for
15 this piece of legislation?
16 Because usually when they do
17 support it -- and I trust you, Senator Robach,
18 you are --
19 SENATOR ROBACH: You can take it
20 to the bank, Senator Johnson.
21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: But I
22 don't see any memorandums in support, and I'd
23 like to see them. Because I'd like to have
24 them.
25 SENATOR ROBACH: Well, I can't

(518) 371-8910
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1 speak for everybody. I have one in front of
2 me. If you'd like me to, I'll be happy to
3 read it to you.
4 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'd love
5 to see it.
6 SENATOR ROBACH: Okay. Well, it
7 says --
8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'd love
9 to see it.
10 SENATOR ROBACH: I'm going to
11 read it to you.
12 "The New York State AFL-CIO,
13 representing over 2.5 million union men and

14 women, their families and retirees, has the
15 following position on a bill considered by the
16 State Senate Labor Committee, 7251, Robach:
17 Support. For further information, contact Ed
18 Donnelly." Feel free.
19 Again, this -- you know, and I
20 don't mean to sound -- this has a lot of great
21 things in it. I think you're trying to
22 cast -- which you're entitled to your
23 opinion -- aspersions on that this has been
24 done in a vacuum or a closet. That's just
25 inaccurate.

(518) 371-8910
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1 And I think the record, my
2 dialogue, the dialogue with other colleagues
3 on your side and my side of the aisle on this
4 issue would indicate that.
5 And while we're all entitled to our
6 opinion, no one member has carte blanche or
7 the only one that can deal with an issue in
8 our house. That's one of the great things
9 about our democracy.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE:
11 Senator --
12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Will
13 Senator Robach continue to yield for a
14 question?
15 SENATOR ROBACH: I've already
16 done it.
18 Robach will not continue to yield for a
19 question.
20 Senator Johnson.
21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I will
22 speak on the bill.
24 you. Senator Johnson, on the bill.

(518) 371-8910
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1 very much.
2 And I thank Senator Robach for, I
3 believe, a very hearty debate. And I don't
4 know if necessarily it was a debate, because
5 at least from my point of view, or from what I
6 believe, I support pay equity in this state.
7 There is no excuse why equal pay is
8 not being paid for equal work. And 40 years
9 after the Equal Pay Act, women are still being
10 paid 77 percent of what their male
11 counterparts make. And how do I know that?
12 Because the studies tell me. New York State
13 Department of Labor, outside agency, labor
14 experts, done under a Republican
15 administration, say it. U.S. State Department
16 of Commerce. Assorted outside groups all say
17 it.
18 This fact is just plain
19 unacceptable in New York and anywhere else.

20 We have to hold businesses accountable for
21 paying their employees fairly. We
22 unfortunately live in a world where
23 legislation requiring New York State to
24 provide equal pay is not only necessary but
25 vital to the many working families in New York

(518) 371-8910
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1 State, especially in families where women are
2 the head of the household.
3 Now, I have reviewed Senator
4 Robach's legislation. I have to say I'm
5 dismayed that it was clearly put in after a
6 rally by supporters of pay equity which was
7 held on April 2nd, after a notice of petition
8 was filed to petition the Senate to bring my
9 pay equity bill onto the floor and was
10 introduced on April 9th, and only today were
11 we told --
13 Maziarz, why do you rise?
14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you,
15 Madam President. Excuse me, Senator.
16 Would Senator Johnson yield for a
17 question?
19 you. Senator Johnson, do you yield for a
20 question?
21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I will
22 yield for my friend Senator Maziarz.

24 Senator yields.
25 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very

(518) 371-8910
1461
1 much, Senator.
2 My question is this. You know,
3 we've crossed a line here today. You know,
4 we've -- thanks to Senator Craig Johnson. You
5 know, there's a time when -- we're all elected
6 officials, and we all play politics. But here
7 on the Senate floor, you know, that doesn't
8 happen very often that we take --
10 President, what's the question?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: I
12 believe the Senator is framing his question.
13 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Ah.
14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, I'm
15 framing my question, just as you did, Senator,
16 in much more time than it's going to take me
17 to frame mine.
18 We've crossed a line here when we
19 take cheap political shots directly at another
20 member. And once those lines are crossed,
21 it's very hard, very hard, to ever go back.
22 Don't make the New York State
23 Senate the county legislature or the New York
24 State Assembly. It demeans all of us.
25 SENATOR DUANE: Madam President,

(518) 371-8910
1462
1 I really --
2 SENATOR MAZIARZ: My question is
3 this, Madam President --
5 you. Senator Duane, why do you rise?
7 this. I chaired the Senate --
8 SENATOR DUANE: I just want to
9 make sure --
11 Maziarz, just a moment, please.
12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Madam
13 President, I'm sorry, who do you recognize?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: I'm
15 recognizing Senator Duane, who just stood up.
16 SENATOR DUANE: Thank you, Madam
17 President. It sounds as if the Senator --
18 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Do you
19 have a question, Senator Duane?
20 SENATOR DUANE: -- is getting to
21 his question.
23 you. I'm sure he is.
25 this. I served, up until approximately

(518) 371-8910
1463
1 30 days ago, as chairman of the Senate Labor

2 Committee for every day Senator Craig Johnson
3 has been a member of this Senate.
4 My question to Senator Johnson is,
5 Senator Craig Johnson is, did you ever once
6 call me, as chairman of the Senate Labor
7 Committee, and tell me how important this bill
8 was to you?
10 Johnson.
12 you. First I would say that -- and I thank
13 you for your question, Senator Maziarz.
14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: You're welcome.
15 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: But I
16 will say this. I actually led my county
17 legislature to actually pass a pay equity
18 piece of legislation which --
19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Would you
20 answer the question, Senator? I take it the
21 answer is no.
22 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'm
23 framing the question, Senator Maziarz.
24 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Your answer is
25 no.

(518) 371-8910
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1 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Excuse
2 me. Senator Johnson, point of order. Would
3 you answer the question? Senator Johnson --
4 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: You don't

5 get to say yes or no, Senator Maziarz. I get
6 to answer my question --
8 Johnson, you're out of order.
9 Senator Duane --
10 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator
11 Johnson, did you ever call me --
12 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE:
13 Gentlemen, please.
14 SENATOR DUANE: Point of order,
15 Madam President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Point
17 of order. Senator Duane.
18 SENATOR DUANE: Madam President,
19 in the Senator's question to Senator Johnson,
20 the issue of a county legislative process was
21 raised. So obviously the response would
22 necessitate a response including a reference
23 to the county legislature. If it is germane
24 for one Senator, it is germane for another
25 Senator.

(518) 371-8910
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1 Thank you, Madam President. I hope
2 that you'll let the Senator continue answering
3 the question.
5 you, Senator.
6 Senator Johnson, to respond to
7 Senator Maziarz's question.

9 you.
10 Which included my, I believe,
11 excellent seven years in the Nassau County
12 legislature. The fact is, as a member of the
13 county legislature -- and for history of my
14 colleagues who are here, I actually led the
15 effort to pass pay equity legislation in the
16 Niagara County legislature. So I think that's
17 very important.
18 But to answer Senator Maziarz's
19 question, which, by the way, I have -- and I
20 understand that the rules don't require a
21 yes-or-no-type answer, it requires an answer.
22 I filled out the request form with the
23 committee, which it's my understanding is the
24 process.
25 So, Senator Maziarz, to answer you

(518) 371-8910
1466
1 directly, did I pick up the phone and call
2 you? I'm sorry, but I did not.
4 you.
5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator, the
6 next question is, did you ever ask to meet
7 with me to talk about this very important
8 topic to you?
10 me. Please address your questions through the

11 chair.
12 Senator Maziarz.
13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I was
14 addressing you, Madam President.
16 you.
17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Would Senator
18 Johnson yield for another question.
20 Johnson, do you yield for a question?
21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: No, I
22 will not. I will continue to explain my --
23 continue to talk on the bill.
25 you. The Senator refuses to yield to the

(518) 371-8910
1467
1 question.
3 you.
5 Johnson, to continue to explain his vote.
7 very much. And I apologize for --
9 me. Senator Johnson, on the bill.
10 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'm on
11 the bill. Thank you very much.
12 Before that short interruption,
13 what I was going to talk about was the fact

14 that I find it incredibly ironic that a bill
15 introduced on April 9th is put quickly before
16 this Senate body -- which, by the way, in
17 questioning pointed out there are some flaws
18 to it. Doesn't make it a bad bill, ladies and
19 gentlemen, members, my colleagues. It just
20 points out the rushed nature of this process.
21 But what's important here is how we
22 address this issue. I think the best way to
23 do it is to finally take that stand and to
24 pass legislation that will make it an unlawful
25 employment practice for an employer to

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1 discriminate between employees on the basis of
2 sex, race, and national origin by paying
3 different wages.
4 Right now my colleague believes
5 that his procedure of having another study
6 done is better. I don't have a problem doing
7 a study. Why not? Because we know what the
8 result will be. It will be the results that
9 everyone else has been saying.
10 So, I tell my colleagues, vote for
11 a study bill. It's due May of 2009. I'll
12 tell you, and I'll tell Senator Robach
13 privately, I know what the result is going to
14 be. The big question is going to be is when
15 we get that result. And if we have not passed
16 pay equity legislation by then, I hope that if

17 Senator Robach and his colleagues are in the
18 majority that they'll pass pay equity
19 legislation then. But their first chance to
20 do so will be tomorrow.
21 So my colleagues, members of the
22 Democratic conference, I urge you to support
23 this bill. I urge you to support it because
24 it will tell you what we already know, and
25 maybe that isn't a bad thing. But the fact

(518) 371-8910
1469
1 is, is that we need pay equity. We need pay
2 equity now.
5 you, Senator Johnson.
6 Is there any other Senator wishing
7 to be heard?
8 Thank you. Senator Krueger.
9 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you,
10 Madam President. Will Senator Maziarz rise
11 for a question?
13 you. Senator Maziarz, will you respond to a
14 question?
15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
17 you. The Senator responds.
18 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank
19 you --
20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator, unlike
21 some of my colleagues, I would be more than
22 happy to respond to a question from you.
23 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you
24 so much. Well, you reference --
25 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I think it

(518) 371-8910
1470
1 would be insulting not to, by the way.
2 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 You referenced in your statement
4 earlier that up until about 30 days ago you
5 were the chair of the Labor Committee.
7 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: And
8 certainly the issue of inequity in pay between
9 men and women is not in debate in this
10 country. The statistics are clear, as my
11 colleague Senator Craig Johnson just laid out.
12 When you were the chair of the
13 Labor Committee, did you ever move any pay
14 equity bills through committee for discussion
15 or debate or hearing?
16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: No. Actually
17 because the sponsor, Senator Johnson, never
18 contacted me once about it. Never attended,
19 never came to one Labor Committee meeting
20 about it, Senator Krueger. Never sent me a
21 message, never talked to me on the floor of
22 this house, never talked to me -- you know, we

23 all tend to hang around here by the telephones
24 in the lounge. Never once did Senator Craig
25 Johnson mention this issue to me.

(518) 371-8910
1471
1 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Madam
2 President --
3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: In the year and
4 a half that he's been here, almost.
6 you. Senator Krueger.
7 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Will
8 Senator Maziarz continue to yield.
10 you. Senator Maziarz, do you continue to
11 yield?
16 Senator Maziarz, the bill that Senator Johnson
17 has been referencing is the same bill that the
18 Assembly passed in the '02 session, the '04
19 session, the '06 session. You were the chair
20 of the Labor Committee during those years --
22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: -- you
23 were --
24 SENATOR MAZIARZ: And now I'm
25 even more shocked that Senator Craig Johnson

(518) 371-8910
1472
1 didn't put this out in front of me, didn't
2 write me memos --
4 you --
5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: -- didn't talk
6 to a Labor Committee meeting.
8 you. Just a moment, please.
9 Senator Krueger.
11 Madam President. If the sponsor would
12 continue to yield.
14 you. Senator Maziarz, do you continue to
15 yield?
16 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Excuse me.
17 Senator Maziarz.
18 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I'm not the
19 sponsor, but --
20 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I clarify.
21 Would Senator Maziarz continue to yield.
22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you.
24 you. Do you continue to yield?
25 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Again, Madam

(518) 371-8910
1473
1 President, my answer is, unlike some of my

2 colleagues, I will continue to yield, yes.
6 In fact, Senator Johnson wasn't
7 here during those years. He's a relatively
8 new Senator.
9 But when you were the chair of the
10 Labor Committee, the issue of pay equity or
11 the inequity of pay between men and women
12 never was an issue before your committee? It
13 was not something you were aware of or
14 following through with the Assembly Committee
15 on Labor on?
16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, let me
17 start off by saying, you know, based on your
18 first comment there, I said in my comments
19 that every day Senator Craig Johnson was a
20 member of this body, I was chairman of the
21 Senate Labor Committee. And he never
22 contacted me once about it.
23 You made the reference that Senator
24 Johnson has only been here for a little over a
25 year. And that's exactly what I said in my

(518) 371-8910
1474
1 comments; he's been here over a year. If this
2 was such a important issue to him he's
3 critical of Senator Robach for it, he never
4 did anything about it.

5 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank
6 you --
7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I never heard
8 from him, Senator, on how important this issue
9 was.
11 you, Senator --
12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Never came to
13 one meeting. Never called me. Never saw me
14 out here, never wrote me a memo.
16 Maziarz, thank you.
17 Senator Krueger.
19 Madam President. Well, thank you, Senator
20 Maziarz.
21 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you.
22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I have no
23 more questions for you.
24 SENATOR DUANE: Madam President.

(518) 371-8910
1475
1 Duane.
2 SENATOR DUANE: Would Senator
3 Krueger yield for a question from me?
5 you. Senator Krueger, do you yield for a
6 question from Senator Duane?
7 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Certainly,

8 Madam President.
12 President.
13 I'm assuming that Senator Krueger
14 actually, on committees of which she is a
15 member -- unlike committees that she may not
16 be a member -- but if she is a member of such
17 committees, when -- I'm wondering if the
18 Senator, when she has asked for action on her
19 bills from those committee chairs that are in
20 the Majority, how has that gone for you?
21 (Laughter.)
22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER:
23 Unfortunately, I have not been very successful
24 at getting my bills brought to agenda in the
25 various committees that I sit on.

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1476
1 SENATOR DUANE: I'm sure that
2 will change now.
5 you, Senator Duane.
6 Senator Krueger.
8 Madam President.
9 I appreciated Senator Maziarz
10 answering my questions.
11 I do think I want to highlight that
12 pay inequity is a huge issue for the people of
13 the State of New York. It is a huge issue for
14 the women of the state of New York and
15 minorities of the State of New York. And so I
16 am in fact disappointed that in all the years
17 he was the chair of the Labor Committee,
18 apparently this never came to the attention of
19 the committee.
20 But I would like to ask the sponsor
21 if he would please yield, if Senator Robach
22 would yield for a question.
24 you. Senator Robach, would you yield for a
25 question from Senator Krueger?

(518) 371-8910
1477
1 SENATOR ROBACH: I will not only
2 yield but say you must be delighted that we're
3 doing something about it now.
5 you. Senator Krueger, the Senator yields.
7 Well, yes, in reference it is true
8 the new Labor Committee chair is at least
9 looking at the issue, unlike the previous
10 Labor chair, who did not look at the issue for
11 all those years.
12 SENATOR ROBACH: I've been saying
13 that for years, you know.

14 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Please
15 speak through the chair.
16 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: But in
17 fact, your bill is a study bill. And I share
18 my colleague's concern that the studies have
19 been done.
20 But I want to talk about the
21 penalties. Can you tell me how many people in
22 the State of New York actually have been found
23 guilty in the civil penalties which you're
24 increasing from $500 to $1,000?
25 SENATOR ROBACH: I do not know

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1478
1 that off the top of my head. If it's one,
2 it's too many. We ought to increase the
3 penalty to make sure we're doing all we can to
4 dissuade them from that bad activity.
5 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Madam
6 President, if the sponsor would continue to
7 yield.
10 yield?
15 While I suspect I know the answer,
16 for consistency, do you know how many people

17 were found guilty under the criminal penalties
18 section of your act, which would also increase
19 the penalties? And, just to continue, how
20 many people have been found guilty of a felony
21 under the existing criminal laws that you are
22 referencing increasing?
23 SENATOR ROBACH: I don't. But I
24 hope through the study, the review of an
25 outside agency -- rather than internal review,

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1 which has been suggested in other pieces of
2 legislation -- that we'd be more likely to
3 catch anybody through that. And also have the
4 word go out that not only the penalty would
5 more fit the crime, but less people and
6 employers would be willing to do that negative
7 practice.
8 So I didn't really focus on what
9 the number was. I tried to focus on how bad I
10 thought it was and how much we should try to
11 do something, both in terms of the unfairness
12 as well as the heightened sense of a lot of
13 groups on trying to refocus on this issue.
14 Totally in response to that, Senator Krueger.
16 Madam President --
18 you. Senator Krueger.
19 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: On the

20 bill, Madam President.
22 you. Thank you --
23 SENATOR ROBACH: It's really a
24 prosecutor's job to enforce those penalties.
25 I think what the problem is, and I think it's

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1 relevant to your answer, we have to do a
2 better job regardless of what the number or
3 percentage of people who are violating it is,
4 to get them to a place where they can't do it
5 anymore.
6 That's the intent of this
7 legislation, and I think it does it strongly.
8 I do think it's more than a study. I think
9 it's really a review by the people that can
10 then turn that information over to the right
11 authorities to stop it, rather than do a
12 review internally by businesses, or
13 self-reviewed, where the information goes and
14 sits somewhere and, as people have pointed
15 out, maybe has not been acted on.
16 Again, also, this would be specific
17 to New York State, not a national study.
20 you.
21 Senator Krueger, on the bill.

23 Madam President.
24 I think we know the answers. I am
25 as frustrated as my colleague, Senator

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1 Johnson, that we are not debating a bill that
2 would actually outlaw discrimination in
3 employment and wages.
4 According to the AFL-CIO, as a
5 woman, statistically -- now, to be fair, as a
6 woman in the New York State Legislature, it's
7 one of the only jobs where you are guaranteed
8 equal pay. Men legislators and women
9 legislators do not get paid differently.
10 But in most situations in the State
11 of New York and in this country, there is not
12 that protection against discrimination. And
13 according to the AFL-CIO, at the rate that pay
14 inequity is being addressed in this country,
15 it will take women to the year 2050 to reach
16 pay equity. And I have to say that is way too
17 long a period of time.
18 And the data is in. And one
19 colleague pulled a number of reports out. I
20 went on Google Scholars -- it's a subsection
21 on the Internet for academic research -- and I
22 could find 257 reports on pay inequity for
23 women. And Congress has held hearings, and
24 organizations and agencies throughout the
25 country have held hearings.

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1 And in fact, I carry a bill that
2 would be a constitutional amendment requiring
3 that there not be discrimination in pay
4 between men and women.
5 And in fact, I would argue that
6 this is too little, too late. It's not that
7 it's wrong to study the issue. It's wrong to
8 delay taking action on the issue, saying
9 you're waiting for another report when the
10 data is so clear. And it harms women, and it
11 harms minorities, and it harms their families.
12 And it has now been decades, decades that
13 women are not closing the gap, that minorities
14 are not closing the gap.
15 And we are all paying a price for
16 it, because in fact we are seeing families in
17 poverty, we are seeing children growing up in
18 poverty because there is an inequitable pay
19 structure throughout our economy.
20 So I will vote for Senator Robach's
21 bill. But I will with a wink and a nod that
22 this is not adequate, and that we do have
23 answers, and that we have better legislation
24 that I wish had moved through this house, as
25 it has moved through the Assembly every

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1 session for the last four sessions.

2 So it's not the bill I would like
3 to be voting on, but it is a bill that I can
4 find no argument to vote no on. But it is not
5 enough, and we should not be satisfied.
8 you, Senator Krueger.
9 Senator Connor.
10 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Madam
11 President.
12 I'm supporting this bill, and I
13 certainly agree with the issue Senator Craig
14 Johnson raised about we should get right down
15 to it and outlaw discrimination.
16 I rise really to correct something
17 that my esteemed colleague Senator Liz Krueger
18 said. The New York State Senate is not, is
19 not the only place in New York State where
20 there's pay equity. There isn't equity here.
21 There is not equity in this Legislature. If
22 you read the State Constitution, it says that
23 all members of the Legislature shall receive a
24 like annual compensation. The cases are
25 legion that say compensation includes pension.

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1 And indeed, speaking for the whole
2 Legislature, if I'm not correct, since Betty
3 Connelly left the Assembly and Arthur Eve left
4 the Assembly there remain in this Legislature

5 a handful of white males that are in ADA, have
6 a much, much better pension plan than any
7 woman serving in either house of the
8 Legislature, than any African-American serving
9 in either house of the Legislature, more than
10 any Latino or Latina serving in the
11 Legislature. There is not equity in
12 compensation in the Legislature.
13 And by the way, a lot of younger
14 white males also are doing the same job and
15 aren't getting pay equity with the people who
16 are in ADA.
17 My colleagues, someday we ought to
18 address this. Thank you.
20 you.
21 Senator Stavisky.
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would Senator
23 Maziarz --
24 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: I'm
25 sorry, Senator Maziarz is not in the chamber

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1 right now.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would Senator
3 Robach perhaps --
4 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Yes.
5 Senator Robach, would you yield for a
6 question, please?
7 SENATOR ROBACH: Of course.

9 Senator yields.
10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator
11 Maziarz spent quite a bit of time as chair of
12 the Labor Committee. And during that time --
13 and in fact, I know you're a new chair of the
14 Labor Committee -- did that pay equity or did
15 a pay equity bill ever pass the Assembly?
16 SENATOR ROBACH: I heard today
17 that it had.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: And if the
19 Senator would continue to yield.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
24 When a bill passes the Assembly, it
25 automatically comes -- it is referenced to a

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1 Senate committee, the Senate Committee on
2 Labor. Is that correct?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Is that
4 a question, Senator?
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes, it is.
6 Is that correct?
7 SENATOR ROBACH: I'm taking your
8 word for it. I believe so, yes.
10 Senator says he believes so.

11 SENATOR STAVISKY: And what
12 happened when the bills passed the Assembly
13 and came to the Labor Committee over the
14 years? What happened to those bills? They
15 were held; is that correct, Senator?
16 SENATOR ROBACH: I'm assuming so.
17 Again, I was not the chairman of that
18 committee when any of those bills were ever
19 sent here.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: So in other
21 words -- on the bill, Madam President.
22 Thank you, Senator.
24 you.
25 SENATOR STAVISKY: These bills

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1 did pass the Assembly, they were sent to the
2 Senate Labor Committee, and they were held.
3 They were never reported out of committee.
4 This is an automatic process, I understand,
5 where they are referred to the committee in
6 the other house.
7 So there was an opportunity to vote
8 on pay equity. It never was put on the agenda
9 to be voted upon by the entire Labor Committee
10 and then the entire Senate.
11 Thank you.
13 you, Senator.
14 Senator Diaz.
15 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you, Madam
16 President. Madam President, would the sponsor
17 yield for a question or two?
19 you.
20 Senator Robach, will you yield for
21 a question?
24 Senator yields.
25 SENATOR DIAZ: Regarding the

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1 discussion that we are having here today, it
2 is a good one. It is a good one. But I have
3 some things that are coming to my mind.
4 Senator Robach, when we talk about
5 pay inequities, we always talk about men
6 versus women. Men get better pay, the women
7 are always getting less pay. And that is
8 true, that's something that we all know.
9 However, I believe there are some other pay
10 inequities, and I would like to know if you
11 are including these categories in your study.
12 Besides men versus women, there are
13 also inequities in salary when it comes to
14 whites versus minorities. There are
15 occasional studies that a person doing the
16 same work, a minority or black or Hispanic,

17 gets less pay than a white person doing it.
18 There are also other inequities.
19 English speaker versus non-English speaker
20 doing the same work, doing the same job, doing
21 the same thing. But because one speaks
22 English better than the other, that one gets
23 better pay.
24 And the last one that I would like
25 you to tell me if you are including those

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1 categories in your study is undocumented. You
2 know, undocumented people are being abused.
3 People hire them, they work, they do the same
4 kind of work as other people. And there are
5 employers there that don't pay them, that
6 abuse them and don't pay them -- not only they
7 don't pay equal, sometimes they don't even get
8 paid at all.
9 So in your study that you are
10 requesting, are you including these categories
11 too, or just men versus women?
12 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, Senator
13 Diaz. I don't like to use just the word
14 "study." I think it will be a study and
15 somewhat of a comprehensive review. And it
16 not only affect men and woman, but it will
17 also affect minorities, something that was
18 kind of put out there that was inaccurate by
19 one of the previous speakers.

20 On line 10 and 11 of the bill, it
21 says "also will study and look at violations
22 relating to the wage differential between men
23 and women, between minorities and
24 nonminorities in the same job, in jobs that
25 are dissimilar but that required equivalent

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1 composites of skill, welfare, responsibility,"
2 et cetera. So it does address it more
3 comprehensively than just the men and women
4 issue.
6 you. Senator Diaz.
7 SENATOR DIAZ: Madam President,
8 would the sponsor yield for --
9 SENATOR ROBACH: Which I believe
10 is consistent --
12 me. Senator Robach, will you continue to
13 yield for Senator Diaz?
14 SENATOR ROBACH: I will. Can I
15 just finish, just a clarification.
16 Which I think is consistent with
17 existing law, which is one of the misnomers
18 that's also been out there. There is already
19 some law on the books as well as general laws
20 where you cannot discriminate in hiring
21 practices to begin with.
22 What this bill, again, goes after

23 for everyone's benefit is to try to find out
24 where these offenders are and then make sure
25 we go after them aggressively, thoroughly, not

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1 only with increased penalties and fines, to
2 send out the message, but really give the
3 proper authority -- which I believe should be
4 government, not only because they have the
5 ability but the obligation to enforce it in a
6 strong way.
9 SENATOR DIAZ: Madam President,
10 through you, would the sponsor yield for
11 another question?
13 you. Senator Robach, will you continue to
15 SENATOR ROBACH: Absolutely.
17 you.
18 He yields.
19 SENATOR DIAZ: We all know that
20 anyone that hires an undocumented person,
21 there's a fine for that. Now, what I'm
22 talking about -- because I don't hear you
23 saying that's included -- the person that
24 don't pay the wages when they hire an
25 undocumented person, is that undocumented

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1 inequity, the inequity in pay to undocumented
2 people, is that included in the --
3 SENATOR ROBACH: Expanding on the
4 current law, staying consistent, it says
5 exactly what I read to you. I don't think it
6 makes any differential. I believe it would be
7 if there was a violation, then for them to
8 review that.
9 I don't know -- I'm not an
10 attorney, I have never done that -- I don't
11 know what the application would be for an
12 undocumented alien working here or person in
13 here.
14 I don't know. But just for
15 reference, I think that would be up for
16 interpretation, because it clearly does say,
17 you know, for any reason discriminating inside
18 the pay for equal skill set.
21 SENATOR DIAZ: Last question.
22 Madam President, through you, would the
23 sponsor yield for another question?
25 Robach, will you yield for another question?

(518) 371-8910
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2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Yes, he
3 yields.
4 SENATOR DIAZ: Reading part of
5 the bill, it says "any employer who fails to
6 pay the wages of his employees."
7 Do you consider an undocumented
8 worker an employee?
9 SENATOR ROBACH: I would say
10 this. The law is pretty clear on what it
11 does. I think the issue, quite frankly, of
12 undocumented illegal aliens is really a
13 subject for our federal colleagues that need
14 to define that and do that. I think we're
15 stretching here to try and attach this issue
16 to this bill, in all honesty.
17 SENATOR DIAZ: I was supposed to
18 ask a last question. But, Madam President,
19 through you, I don't think that the Senator
20 has answered my question.
21 SENATOR ROBACH: So, Senator
22 Diaz, perhaps this will --
24 you, Senator --
25 SENATOR ROBACH: Maybe this is a

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1 better answer for you. I've been told by
2 counsel that the Department of Labor simply
3 looks at the issue, not the status of the
4 person, if there is a complaint found and

5 lodged.
7 you.
8 SENATOR DIAZ: On the bill, Madam
9 President.
11 Senator Diaz, on the bill.
12 SENATOR DIAZ: We all know about
13 the inequities in payment through history. I
14 understand that studies have been made. But
15 we don't have to do too much studies to know
16 that this thing is happening.
17 I commend Senator Robach for trying
18 to do something about it. I commend Senator
19 Craig Johnson for also trying to solve the
20 problem. Because this is a problem that we
21 are facing in our society. Men are always
22 getting paid more than, better than women, and
23 women being discriminated in that essence.
24 However, there is also, there is
25 also the inequities, anybody that's trying to

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1 do something about it, that we're trying to
2 do, Senator Craig Johnson and Senator Robach,
3 anybody that is trying to do something about
4 it, I will say that we have to consider, we
5 have to consider the inequities in payment,
6 Senator Johnson, on blacks against whites, on
7 English speakers against non-English speakers,

8 on legal workers versus undocumented workers.
9 Inequity is all over. And we have
10 to do away with this. We have to do something
11 about it. I congratulate you again. I'm
12 supporting this bill. I'm voting for this
13 bill. And I will support Senator Craig
14 Johnson's bill if it come to the floor. And I
15 support anyone that brings a bill dealing with
16 this situation.
17 I hope that the future bill deals
18 with undocumented, black versus white, English
19 speaker versus non-English speaker, and people
20 with nice hair against kinky hair.
21 (Laughter.)
23 you.
24 Senator Schneiderman.
25 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you,

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1 Madam President. I also rise in support of
2 this bill. If the sponsor would yield for a
3 few questions.
5 you. Senator Robach, do you yield?
9 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you.
10 It appears to me that we are in the

11 fortunate position today of both sides of the
12 aisle attempting to remedy the same problem.
13 And I think it's important for us to bear that
14 in mind. I don't know -- sometimes we get
15 excited here. I think someone tore up Senator
16 Maziarz's Eddie Eagle comics earlier today,
17 put him off his feed.
18 But it is clear that we are all
19 trying to address the same issue, and I think
20 it's important to bear that in mind.
21 And I gather that Senator Johnson's
22 bill, the New York State Fair Pay Act, which
23 he has discussed and has come up here, and
24 Senator Robach's bill, Senate 7521, are two
25 different approaches to the same set of

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1 issues.
2 Senator Robach, you stated in
3 response to this back-and-forth, and sometimes
4 you guys were talking a little bit in
5 shorthand, that you felt this was the best way
6 to address the issue. What issue are you
7 referring to, the equal pay for equal work
8 issue?
9 SENATOR ROBACH: Pay equity,
10 correct.
11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Pay
12 equity. And then you stated that we just took
13 the existing language of the Labor Law and

14 made the modifications as to the numbers of
15 the fine.
16 SENATOR ROBACH: Correct.
17 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Okay. And
18 then the other provision provides for the
19 study.
20 SENATOR ROBACH: And review,
21 correct.
22 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Study and
23 review.
24 Senator Johnson's bill actually
25 changes the language in the Labor Law and adds

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1 additional provisions. It is an interesting
2 bill. I think it seems like a very good bill.
3 I commend it to you in your capacity as Labor
4 chair.
5 It adds, throughout the
6 legislation, where the current Labor Law just
7 refers to sex, the phrase "sex, race or
8 national origin." Is that correct?
9 SENATOR ROBACH: I'll take your
10 word for it.
11 And existing law, as I read before
12 to Senator Diaz, I think says the same thing
13 in a little bit different semantics, between
14 men and women, minorities, nonminorities in
15 the same job classification. I think that
16 broaches the same subject.

17 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: I'm sorry,
18 which section of the law were you just reading
19 from?
20 SENATOR ROBACH: I believe, let
21 me see, it is on page -- do you have the bill?
22 Page 2.
23 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Of which
24 bill?
25 SENATOR ROBACH: 7521, line 11 --

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1 well, 10, 11 and 12.
2 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: That is
3 the provision defining the scope of the study,
4 is that not correct?
5 SENATOR ROBACH: Not on page --
6 not on the front page, 10, 11.
7 If you go to page 2, and on 10, 11
8 and 12. Actually, if you'll give this back to
9 me, I'll hand this right --
10 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: No, no,
11 I've got a copy of it.
12 That actually is the provision that
13 states that it authorizes the Senate and
14 Assembly and everyone else to do a report on
15 or before May 1st on issues relating to the
16 wage differential between men and women and
17 between minorities and nonminorities. But
18 that has to do with the scope of the report.
19 SENATOR ROBACH: Correct. Let

20 me -- that is what they will study, and that's
21 the language that we used consistent with
22 existing law. Correct.
23 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Okay,
24 thank you. So other than changing the amount
25 of the fines for the misdemeanor and felony

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1 already provided for in law, your bill doesn't
2 change any of the language of the existing
3 law.
4 Do you have any thoughts or ideas
5 that you could share with us as to how the
6 existing language of the Labor Law could be
7 improved in our efforts to achieved pay
8 equity?
9 SENATOR ROBACH: I -- you know,
10 again, today is an interesting day. We got
11 criticized for acting quickly.
12 I am always open to anything that I
13 think will improve it. This is an attempt,
14 again, to try and address an issue that we've
15 talked about for a while. Groups have come,
16 both to me and other members of this body,
17 wanting a specific action, a number of
18 specific actions. This is my attempt to
19 address it in a way I do sincerely feel is
20 very good.
21 You have to -- you can call it just
22 a study, but I think unless you have the right

23 people studying it and reviewing it, it's
24 never going to get turned over or get acted
25 upon. That clearly is my attempt, whether

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1 it's gender inequity, whether it's minority
2 inequity, whatever they may be -- for the
3 women in my family, for the women in yours,
4 that's what we want to get to.
5 I really do believe this will do
6 that, in some regards more expeditiously than
7 some of the other ideas I've heard on the
8 issue, which I'm sure all have some validity.
9 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you,
10 Madam President. On the bill.
12 you. Senator Schneiderman, on the bill.
13 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: This has
14 been an interesting discussion. I am pleased
15 that after years of the Assembly passing
16 legislation to require pay equity between men
17 and women, the Senate is finally seeking to do
18 something on the issue.
19 But I must say I share the concern
20 of some of my colleagues that Senator Johnson
21 has taken a great deal of effort to look at
22 all the existing studies and all the data
23 that's available and craft a bill that goes
24 significantly beyond the bill before us today.
25 And it was only after there was a

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1 rally with supporters of his bill, and after
2 there was some press blowback because Senator
3 Robach spoke at the rally but then said he was
4 not going to support the New York State Fair
5 Pay Act sponsored by Senator Johnson, that
6 this bill flew out of the back room, flew into
7 the Labor Committee and flew into Rules.
8 I think the people of the State of
9 New York may not understand, gentlemen, that
10 when a Senator fills out the forms and files a
11 bill so that it's all open to public
12 disclosure, that that's not the right
13 procedure. They may not understand this
14 business about phone calls and backroom
15 conversation.
16 If the Senator said to the chairman
17 of the committee or the bill was referred to
18 the chairman of the committee, a piece of
19 legislation, I don't think it's really -- I
20 think it demeans this institution to suggest
21 that that's not the proper way to present the
22 bill. So I commend Senator Johnson for
23 following those procedures.
24 The one substantive difference
25 between Senator Johnson's bill and the bill

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1 before us today that I find very disturbing --

2 and, Senator Diaz, you spoke to this -- is
3 that throughout Senator Johnson's bill it says
4 we are here to prevent and it orders the state
5 to prevent discrimination based on sex, race,
6 or national origin. Over and over again:
7 "sex, race or national origin."
8 Now, other than providing for a
9 study to find out whether or not there are
10 these problems in wage differentials between
11 men and women and between minorities and
12 nonminorities in the same job -- I'm not sure
13 what "minorities and nonminorities" mean. It
14 doesn't use the language of the federal law,
15 which Senator Johnson does, "sex, race or
16 national origin."
17 This law just refers to the
18 existing statute, which only covers unequal
19 pay because of sex. Now, unequal pay because
20 of sex is a very serious problem, but the
21 existing law already deals with it. The only
22 change to existing law here is a slight
23 modification in fines.
24 Why on earth in 2008 do we need to
25 wait for a study before we put into the

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1 New York State Labor Law a provision that it
2 is wrong to pay people differently based on
3 sex, race or national origin? That's what
4 Senator Johnson's bill does. That's what

5 Senator Robach's bill does not do.
6 And when I asked do you have any
7 thoughts as to how we might change the
8 language of the Labor Law to improve it, the
9 Senator said he thinks this is the best
10 approach. Well, I don't think the best
11 approach is to wait for a study before we make
12 the law as tough as possible on people who
13 would pay unequal wages based on race.
14 And I think that it is a shame that
15 a very few days after we had all sorts of fine
16 words spoken and a noble tribute to Reverend
17 Martin Luther King, that we are today passing
18 a bill that does not add to the New York State
19 Labor Law a provision to prevent unequal pay
20 because of race or national origin.
21 I'm going to support this law just
22 because it is some effort. The fines are
23 slightly greater. But I think that Senator
24 Johnson's bill, which will come here tomorrow,
25 as everyone knows, on a motion to petition --

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1 and which this is apparently an effort to
2 preempt -- proposes a much more serious
3 approach to this problem.
4 I will be voting for this bill,
5 Madam President, but I'll also be voting for
6 Senator Johnson's petition tomorrow. And
7 anyone who is sincere about trying to do

8 something about the issue of inequity in pay
9 in this state should vote for that petition as
10 well.
13 you.
14 Senator Stewart-Cousins.
15 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS: Thank
17 Could the sponsor please yield for
18 a question?
20 you. Senator Robach, will you yield for a
21 question?
24 Senator yields.

(518) 371-8910
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1 you.
2 I must say that I certainly am
3 going to support this. I'm very, very excited
4 that there's so much discussion about the
5 inequity of pay. And certainly it seems that
6 we are motivated.
7 But I was just taking a look at the
8 legislation, I was just inquiring on the
9 second page, on line 21, it seems that this
10 would provide legislative and policy

11 recommendations regarding wage differential,
12 including sanctions and penalties.
13 So I'm just wondering whether the
14 front, where we're changing the penalties, is
15 not somehow preempting the study that we're
16 requiring. Why are you, without benefit of
17 the study, deciding to change the penalties?
18 SENATOR ROBACH: Well, I think
19 that's the misnomer. People keep saying that
20 it's not -- there is already existing statute
21 that penalizes people for doing exactly what
22 we're talking about. There's a breadth and
23 scope of law that already addresses
24 discrimination, and rightfully so.
25 I'm going to say it again, and what

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1 this bill really does -- not what others are
2 trying to say it does or doesn't do for
3 that -- this bill quantifies and increases the
4 penalty, doubles, for civil penalties, the
5 fine for those that already violate the law,
6 fivefold for those that do it; in a criminal
7 way, twentyfold, up to $20,000 in fines in one
8 part of the law.
9 And that is for gender inequity,
10 that is for minority inequity or any of those
11 things we've spoken of. There's already a set
12 of penalties in here for that. So this is
13 going to expand on those.

14 Simultaneously -- and this is where
15 our bills are a little bit different, even
16 though I don't think it's really germane to
17 today. The other approach that some people
18 have is to put a self-policing or reporting
19 mechanism in place which would still need
20 action from government. My approach is to
21 have the government do it right up front, and
22 not only study but look for the violations,
23 turn them over and address them quickly.
24 And when they do, I want those
25 penalties in place. And I also want to send a

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1 clear message that we're going to be a little
2 bit more serious about the enforcement of what
3 I think everyone already knows in New York --
4 we've led the way -- that we should not be
5 discriminating against anyone for any reason,
6 on employment, on pay equity, any of those
7 things.
8 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS: If the
9 sponsor would continue to yield.
11 you. Will the sponsor continue to yield?
15 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS: I
16 certainly appreciate that broader explanation.

17 And so I guess now I'm concerned
18 about the study. I think those of us who have
19 waited so long for a disparity study and the
20 cost of that disparity study and the depth and
21 the breadth of minority-, women-owned
22 businesses and whether or not they were doing
23 business in New York -- we know they're not.
24 However -- not, certainly, to the extent that
25 they could and should. But however, there is

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1 a study.
2 Is there some accommodation for the
3 expense of this study that you would begin to
4 undertake? What do you suspect it might cost?
5 And how long do you think before we can begin
6 to even study?
7 SENATOR ROBACH: I hope there
8 will be something before the year. And I have
9 every confidence Commissioner Smith, the Labor
10 Commissioner, who came from the Attorney
11 General's office, is, I think, not only very
12 capable, very interested, and has a little bit
13 of a different breadth of experience that will
14 make her not only committed but perfect for
15 heading this up.
17 you very much.
18 SENATOR ROBACH: You're welcome.
19 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS: On the

20 bill.
21 Again, it is -- I think it is
22 interesting that we're spending this much time
23 on this: beginning to study things that we
24 know the answer to, limiting our studies where
25 we know that there is an expansive opportunity

(518) 371-8910
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1 for us.
2 Of course I will support this
3 legislation because I believe, hopefully, this
4 is the beginning of something that really
5 changes. I'll be supporting, obviously, the
6 motion to petition tomorrow and really urge
7 our colleagues that if we are really serious
8 about ending the inequity, which frankly is
9 embarrassing in 2008, that we do it not in a
10 month, not at the end of the year, not
11 depending on other people, but right here in
12 this body where we can.
13 Thank you.
15 you, Senator.
16 Is there any other Senator wishing
17 to be heard?
18 Senator Robach will close to the
19 debate.
20 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, Madam
21 President. Just to really reiterate, this has
22 been an interesting dialogue and I think is

23 somewhat useful. But I would have to say,
24 interestingly, one of the first times in my
25 legislative career where, for addressing

(518) 371-8910
1511
1 something quickly and aggressively, there's
2 been some degree of criticism leveled.
3 I also think that when we talk
4 about the merits of this bill, because of the
5 dialogue, I would be remiss -- people often
6 speak for you. What I said is exactly what I
7 did. I said I would look at the issue, I was
8 ideologically opposed to this -- again, for my
9 daughters, for the women in my family, the
10 women across New York State, people of every
11 race, creed and color -- and that I would look
12 at the issue as the new chairman and I would
13 try to take the action that I felt was best.
14 That is exactly what I did.
15 Quickly, timely, had a lot of dialogue with a
16 lot of people in this process, both inside the
17 Legislature and outside, to accomplish that
18 goal, even as well as my colleague on the
19 Assembly side of the aisle, who again I would
20 say has been a real champion for infants,
21 children, men and women, civil rights: Nettie
22 Mayersohn. We want to move this bill forward
23 and get it done.
24 This bill, again, sets forward a
25 review and an action plan for the commissioner

(518) 371-8910
1512
1 to out those people who are in violation and
2 increases the penalties dramatically. The
3 smallest increase is doubling; on the criminal
4 side, even increasing it 20 times what the
5 financial penalty is for those that violate.
6 Clearly, this is what many people
7 have been talking about, many people have been
8 advocating for. I believe both those things
9 going on at the same time will be good. And I
10 hope that they'll work in concert -- because
11 my assurance is this bill will pass, based on
12 its merit -- that as the study and the review
13 is done, and if people are found to be in
14 violation, we can then apply the second part
15 of this, which is the penalty.
16 And then, lastly, I'll applaud
17 everyone who is going to vote for this because
18 I believe it also does send a message to the
19 advocates and to the community at large that
20 we're serious about addressing this important
21 issue for everyone in New York. This not only
22 will help those workers that will benefit; I
23 think it makes our state stronger, and I
24 ultimately think it makes our businesses not
25 only fairer but stronger as well. So I would

(518) 371-8910
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1 encourage people to vote in the affirmative.

5 The debate is closed.
6 The Secretary will ring the bell.
7 Read the last section.
11 the roll.
14 you. Senator Adams, to explain his vote.
15 SENATOR ADAMS: Thank you, Madam
16 President.
17 I want to thank Senator Johnson for
18 his explanation. I'm going to vote yea on
19 this bill. And I think, when you look at how
20 many single-family households are headed by
21 women, how important this issue is, we don't
22 need more studies to show how important it is
23 to make sure that people are paid fairly. And
24 we need to move ahead with this agenda.
25 I'm hoping tomorrow, when Senator

(518) 371-8910
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1 Johnson's bill is brought to the floor, we
2 would have the same positive energy and the
3 same sense of urgency that this needs to be
4 addressed.
5 I'm going to vote yes on this bill,
6 and I'm hoping and I encourage my colleagues
7 to do so also.
9 you. Senator Adams will be recorded in the
10 affirmative.
11 Senator Maziarz, to explain his
12 vote.
13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you,
14 Madam President.
15 I too will be voting in the
16 affirmative on this legislation.
17 You know, today, today is kind of a
18 sad day for me here. I've been in this body
19 for 14 years, been honored every day I've
20 served here. And it's the first day ever,
21 first day ever that another Senator has
22 refused to yield for a question from me.
23 You know, on that side of the aisle
24 there are a lot of Senators who get up and
25 talk a lot. Senator Eric Adams, Kevin Parker,

(518) 371-8910
1515
1 Liz Krueger, Eric Schneiderman, Senator
2 Duane -- not so much Senator Duane recently,
3 but in the past, certainly.
4 You know, every day -- every day
5 that I am here, every day that I am here the
6 last call I make at night is to my wife. And
7 she and I talk, you know, for a little while,

8 and we kind of compare notes of what went on
9 that day. And I tell her about something that
10 Eric Adams got up and talked about here on the
11 floor. And I say, you know, he talked with
12 such passion and such commitment. And I so
13 admire that. I so admire that.
14 And it's an honor for me to serve
15 with all of you. You know why? Because
16 you're never offensive. And you're never
17 personal.
18 And that's what we lost here today.
19 That's what we lost here today.
20 I've served here with Franz
21 Leichter, Manny Gold, giants of the New York
22 State Senate. Ron Stafford, Charlie Cook,
23 John Marchi. You know, I can -- John
24 DeFrancisco.
25 (Laughter.)

(518) 371-8910
1516
1 UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: Giants.
2 Giants.
3 (Laughter.)
4 SENATOR MAZIARZ: You know, when
5 Marty Connor gets up and talks about the
6 history of the Senate because he's been here
7 so long, it's also like a young version of
8 John Marchi talking, you know: he knows
9 everything.
10 I would encourage the leadership in

11 the Minority to think about things like that.
12 I think when you personally attack
13 another Senator on the floor of this body,
14 it's not good for any of us. Not good for any
15 of us.
16 And when I leave here -- and I hope
17 that's a few years from now, by the way -- you
18 know, I want to be able to say that every day
19 I served here that I was proud of it and that
20 I was honored to serve with all of you.
23 you. Senator Maziarz, how do you vote?
24 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye.

(518) 371-8910
1517
1 you. Senator Maziarz will be recorded in the
2 affirmative.
3 Senator Hassell-Thompson.
4 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank
5 you, Madam President. Just to explain my
6 vote.
7 I will in fact be voting yes on
8 this bill.
9 I'm not -- I'm still not quite
10 clear what the objective of an additional
11 study will give. I would have thought that
12 the kinds of things that we would be looking
13 for in this bill would become policy as

14 opposed to legislative.
15 However, I am concerned that in the
16 process of this study, it will in fact delay
17 the moment at which the State of New York
18 declares that it does in fact owe all workers
19 in the State of New York equitable pay.
20 When the Urban League just did its
21 study several weeks ago on employment among
22 blacks in New York and across this country,
23 they talked about 70 percent of black
24 households were headed by women. Whether
25 we're proud or not of those statistics is not

(518) 371-8910
1518
1 relevant. What is relevant is that they are
2 working women supporting families. And when
3 we talk about them receiving less than other
4 workers in the workplace for the same work, it
5 is doubly unfair, because they are carrying a
6 burden alone.
7 I think that our obligation as
8 legislators is to be concerned about all the
9 people in the State of New York. And as we
10 look at our working class, those who are doing
11 the best that they can, they expect more from
12 us. And I expect more from us. And I would
13 hope that at some point we would come to the
14 point of reality and say let's move the agenda
15 in the right direction. That's my hope.

18 you. Senator Hassell-Thompson will be
19 recorded in the affirmative.
20 Senator Craig Johnson, to explain
21 his vote.
23 very much.
24 I rise in support of this
25 legislation. And I thank my colleagues on the

(518) 371-8910
1519
1 Democratic aisle in advance of tomorrow's vote
2 that we're going to take.
3 This is a start. It's a start
4 that, quite frankly, my concern is it's going
5 to be a false one and that the bill tomorrow
6 that we're going to address is the real thing.
7 I'm not going to get into personal
8 attacks that have been made,
9 misrepresentations. I will say that last week
10 I sat here as a member of this body and heard
11 one Senator claim that we violated our oath of
12 office because we stood up for the way this
13 conference, our conference has been treated
14 and was treated in the budget negotiations. I
15 didn't hear anybody on the other side
16 disagree. I heard a lot of anger and
17 resentment towards the members of my
18 conference about violations of oath of office.
19 It is clear through the debate,

20 through the history that I do not,
21 unfortunately, share yet with my colleagues
22 who have been here a number of years, that pay
23 equity has been called for in the '80s, and
24 it's been ignored by the Majority. It's been
25 called for in the '90s, and it's been ignored.

(518) 371-8910
1520
1 Since 2002 the Assembly sponsor, the same-as
2 sponsor of my bill, they've passed it in the
3 Assembly and referred it, and it's been
4 ignored.
5 Today is a start. Let's hope it
6 gets there. Let's hope we have a better
7 tomorrow for our minorities and for our women
8 who work, who are so vital to our workforce.
9 I vote yes.
11 you. Senator Johnson will be recorded in the
12 affirmative.
13 Senator Duane, to explain his vote.
15 President.
16 I had my name mixed in with a lot
17 of present and past Senators which I hold in
18 the greatest of esteem. Although I do have to
19 mention that I believe that some of my
20 colleagues on the other side of the aisle,
21 though I was not here, thought that Senator
22 Leichter would be a little bit annoying when

23 he talked also. Now, he's not here to defend
24 himself. But I think they learned to love him
25 over time.

(518) 371-8910
1521
1 And I am convinced -- and I also
2 know that Senator Lanza has told me how much
3 he loves it when I debate and wants more of
4 it, has asked for more of that, as a matter of
5 fact.
6 (Laughter.)
7 SENATOR DUANE: So -- but I like
8 to share, Madam President. And in that, I'm
9 going to make sure that all of my colleagues
10 get to share. And sometimes they'll upset
11 people, and sometimes they'll make people
12 laugh. But really to have healthy debates and
13 discussion in this body is, I think, always a
14 good idea.
15 So I will be voting yes, Madam
16 President, in the spirit of all of the greats
17 whose names have been mentioned who previously
18 were in this body and who are in this body
19 today.
22 you. Senator Duane will be recorded in the
23 affirmative.
24 Senator DeFrancisco, to explain his
25 vote.
(518) 371-8910
1522
1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes, I'm
2 going to vote aye. And I'm a little bit --
3 can't quite understand why people are saying
4 this type of activity is not outlawed.
5 Because this bill that Senator Robach brought
6 out is an improvement on a bill that became
7 law in 2002.
8 And I commend Senator Robach, after
9 a few weeks of being chairman of the
10 committee, for working to strengthen the laws
11 against discrimination against women in the
12 wage area.
13 And to suggest that it's not
14 outlawed, and the first offense is a
15 misdemeanor, the second offense is a felony --
16 there's a lot of criminal statutes that we
17 have that some people don't vote for because
18 they think it's just too harsh. Well, it
19 seems to me there is a law. Discrimination is
20 illegal. And it's being strengthened at this
21 time.
22 And I commend Senator Robach at
23 this time, having been chairman of the
24 committee for such a short time, to make it
25 his priority and to bring this law into a much

(518) 371-8910
1523
1 stronger -- this bill a much stronger bill and

2 hopefully a much stronger law.
3 I vote aye.
5 you. Senator DeFrancisco will be recorded in
6 the affirmative.
7 Senator Oppenheimer, to explain her
8 vote.
9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes, thank
11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Another
12 giant.
13 (Laughter.)
14 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Another
15 giant. At least nobody is saying "please
16 stand up when you address the Senate."
17 (Laughter.)
18 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I will be
19 voting yes for this bill, though I am puzzled
20 by the need for another study.
21 I know maybe 20 years ago I was
22 carrying a similar-type bill, and that was
23 because I had experienced pay inequity. And I
24 think this was brought out last week when some
25 of the advocates were up here.

(518) 371-8910
1524
1 After I got my M.B.A. from
2 Columbia, I went down to Wall Street and I was
3 working in one of the major houses on Wall
4 Street, and I was handling certain industries

5 for them in research. And in my room with me
6 was a classmate who had graduated when I did,
7 got his M.B.A. at Columbia, and he was earning
8 almost $10,000 more than I was earning.
9 And so right from the very start --
10 at that point, we are talking many years ago.
11 And I guess I didn't want to ruffle feathers,
12 because we were only about ten women on Wall
13 Street back then. This was in the late '50s
14 and the early '60s. And I guess I was fearful
15 that if I brought this up, that I would
16 experience some negative responses. But
17 that's why, when I came up here maybe 20 years
18 ago or more, I was looking at this bill.
19 So I really don't think we need to
20 study. I mean, I'm the perfect example. And
21 this has been going on for 50 years. And I
22 think that we have the studies to validate it.
23 But I have nothing against the
24 bill; I just think it's unnecessary to do more
25 studies. And certainly if we want to increase

(518) 371-8910
1525
1 fines, I guess that's valid. But I think we
2 really have to do more, act more now.
3 I'll be voting yes.
5 you. Senator Oppenheimer will be recorded in
6 the affirmative.
7 The Secretary will announce the

8 results.
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62. Nays,
10 0.
12 bill is passed.
13 Senator Skelos.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any
15 further business at the desk?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: No,
17 there is no further business.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe
19 there's one motion to petition, if we could
20 take it up at this time.
22 you.
23 Senator Johnson.
25 President, I have a motion at the desk. I

(518) 371-8910
1526
1 would like to have it called up at this time.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senate Print
5 7037, by Senator C. Johnson, an act requiring
6 resolutions be passed prior to the
7 Metropolitan Transportation Authority's
8 approval.

12 very much, Madam President.
13 Simply put, this bill, Senate Bill
14 7037, is about choice. And it's about
15 empowering our communities to have a say in
16 what happens in our own backyards.
17 To those unfamiliar, the Long
18 Island Railroad's third track expansion
19 project would lay approximately 10 miles of
20 track between the Hicksville and Floral Park
21 train stations located in Long Island. This
22 is a project that goes right through the
23 southern portion of the 7th Senatorial
24 District, a district I represent, bisecting
25 dozens of residential neighborhoods, creating

(518) 371-8910
1527
1 real eminent domain issues, to say nothing
2 about the real potential to irrevocably harm
3 the quality of life for these residents.
4 This is obviously of great concern
5 to the residents and the people of these
6 communities and their elected representatives,
7 such as myself. And in my view, the MTA and
8 the Long Island Railroad, under the last two
9 administrations, have not done nearly enough
10 to allay these concerns. They have, in fact,
11 had a tough enough time trying to settle on a
12 justification for this project.
13 A little history. First when they

14 talked about this, they said the project was
15 to increase freight capacity. The proposed
16 truck-to-rail intermodal facility that the DOT
17 wants to build in Suffolk County would
18 certainly back up this justification.
19 But when I and the mainline
20 communities in my district rallied against it,
21 the MTA and third track quickly changed their
22 song. They said no, no, no, it's about
23 accommodating reverse commuters from New York
24 City to Long Island. Only the fact is, is
25 when they actually did the research, there

(518) 371-8910
1528
1 weren't really the reverse commute to justify
2 a third track.
3 And so now they say, well, let's
4 try another one. We're going to call it a
5 passing lane that's going to help the proposed
6 East Side access to Penn Station. But of
7 course, when pressed, the MTA and Long Island
8 Railroad officials admit they don't need the
9 third track for East Side access. And if it
10 is for East Side access, why does the proposed
11 third track stop before it hits Floral Park?
12 If the third track is really the congestion
13 reliever that the MTA claims it to be,
14 shouldn't it go all the way to the Jamaica
15 station in Queens?
16 But of course, by the time this

17 motion is voted upon, the MTA will probably
18 come up with yet again another justification
19 to support this project. They may say, look,
20 Senator Johnson, if we build the third track,
21 they'll all come out.
22 Well, the fact remains is that the
23 mainline communities don't have the parking
24 necessary to actually support a third track.
25 If they build it, in fact, in the New Hyde

(518) 371-8910
1529
1 Park area, the village of New Hyde Park is
2 also going to be undergoing construction for
3 Jericho Turnpike, a state road, at the same
4 time. No one is going to be able to get
5 through the village of New Hyde Park if this
6 project goes on with the Route 25 project.
7 The people, the residents of the
8 mainline corridor are now being asked to
9 shoulder the burdens of third track. But they
10 currently have few answers and no say about
11 how this project is going to be built and will
12 it be built.
13 Well, this legislation, my
14 colleagues, will correct that. Under this
15 bill the village boards of trustees for
16 Bellerose, Floral Park, New Hyde Park, Garden
17 City, Mineola and Westbury, as well as the
18 town boards in Hempstead, North Hempstead and
19 Oyster Bay, which represent the unincorporated

20 areas, would have to vote to approve this
21 project.
22 All the Nassau Senators represent
23 these towns. Two-thirds of these
24 municipalities will be needed to approve it
25 before a third track can proceed.

(518) 371-8910
1530
1 But most importantly, no vote can
2 be taken without a public hearing. That will
3 require and leave to the MTA and the Long
4 Island Railroad no choice but to listen to the
5 concerns and recommendations of the residents
6 who live in the mainline corridor and whose
7 lives are going to be impacted by the third
8 track proposal. It would afford the residents
9 the opportunity to have all their questions
10 answered once and for all.
11 Last week, as you may recall, media
12 reports emerged suggesting that the MTA was
13 considering, once again, another fare hike to
14 pay for its five-year capital plan, of which
15 the third track is a part of. So I now hope
16 one of the first questions to ask is how do we
17 pay for the third track.
18 It is unfortunate that a bill like
19 this is needed. And I actually have a
20 suggestion to the MTA. They want to pay for
21 their capital projects, they can't find the
22 money? Let's make it very simple. Dump the

23 third track. It will save the MTA
24 $1.3 billion right off the bat.
25 Like I said, it's unfortunate that

(518) 371-8910
1531
1 a bill like this is necessary and needed. But
2 frankly, I do not see a better alternative
3 making sure that the communities affected by
4 the third track get the information that they
5 need about this project and have the ability
6 to make sure that their voices are heard.
7 In fact, there was a similar bill
8 sponsored by one of my colleagues from Long
9 Island that sought to empower the communities
10 that would be affected by the Broadwater in
11 the same manner. Thankfully and fortunately,
12 it looks like that measure will not be
13 necessary. And maybe one day the people of
14 the mainline communities will have the same
15 luck.
16 But until that day, and for this
17 moment, this legislation is vital and
18 necessary. I urge every Senator to join me
19 today in voting to bring this measure to the
20 floor.
21 Thank you very much, Madam
22 President.
24 you.
25 All those Senators in favor of the

(518) 371-8910
1532
1 petition out of committee please signify by
2 raising their hands.
3 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
4 agreement are Senators Adams, Aubertine,
5 Breslin, Diaz, Gonzalez, Hassell-Thompson,
6 C. Johnson, Klein, Montgomery, Onorato,
7 Oppenheimer, Perkins, Sampson, Schneiderman,
8 Serrano, Smith, Stachowski, Stewart-Cousins,
9 Thompson and Valesky.
11 petition is not agreed to.
12 Senator Griffo.
13 SENATOR GRIFFO: Yes, Madam
14 President, is there any further business
15 before the desk?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: No,
17 Senator, there is no further business at the
18 desk.
19 SENATOR GRIFFO: There being
20 none, I move that we adjourn until Tuesday,
21 April 15th, at 3:00 p.m.
23 you. On motion, the Senate stands adjourned
24 until Tuesday afternoon at 3:00 p.m.,
25 April 15th.

(518) 371-8910
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1 (Whereupon, at 5:11 p.m., the

2 Senate adjourned.)
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(518) 371-8910

April 14, 2008

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1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE

4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD

9 ALBANY, NEW YORK

10 April 14, 2008

18 SENATOR ELIZABETH O'C. LITTLE, Acting President

19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The

3 Senate will come to order.

4 I ask everyone present to please

5 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of

7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited

8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

9 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The

10 invocation today will be given by the Reverend

11 Peter G. Young, of Mother Theresa Community in

13 REVEREND YOUNG: Thank you,

15 As we share the prayer today, I ask

16 you to look above this podium at the stained

17 glass window. It's the state seal that has

18 been expressing "Excelsior" -- "ever upward."

19 It is replacing the place of the crown in

20 1777. Lady Liberty, with a peasant cap

21 representing democracy, has her left foot

22 stepping on the crown, representing the

24 As citizens of the Empire State, we

25 have been the leader with our constitution,

1 12 years before the federal Constitution.

2 As a national leader, You have

3 given these Senators a great power and

4 responsibility. Now may we pray that they

5 will always work in Your image and in Your

6 honor for all of our New York State citizens.

8 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank

9 you, Father Young.

10 Reading of the Journal.

11 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,

12 Sunday, April 13, the Senate met pursuant to

13 adjournment. The Journal of Saturday,

14 April 12, was read and approved. On motion,

16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Without

17 objection, the Journal stands approved as

20 Messages from the Assembly.

21 Messages from the Governor.

22 Reports of standing committees.

23 Reports of select committees.

24 Communications and reports from

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

1 Motions and resolutions.

3 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you,

5 On behalf of my seatmate here,

6 Senator Seward, on page 24 I offer the

7 following amendments to Calendar Number 341,

8 Senate Print 5775, and I ask that that bill

9 retain its place on the Third Reading

11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The

12 amendments are received and adopted, and the

13 bill will retain its place on the Third

15 SENATOR FARLEY: Madam President,

16 on behalf of Senator Bonacic, I have a motion

17 to amend a bill which was recalled from the