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Unpaid Interns: Real World Work Or Just Free Labor?

by Beenish Ahmed November 16, 2011 Alex Footman worked as an unpaid intern for the award-winning film Black Swan. He and another former unpaid intern for the movie are suing the film's production company for back pay. More than 1 million Americans a year work as interns. About half of them are unpaid. Alex Footman was among them, until recently. He worked as an unpaid intern for Black Swan, a film that won numerous awards and grossed more than $300 million. Footman was hoping an internship with Black Swan would open doors in Hollywood. Instead, it has made him rethink his career plans. "This was six months of my life which left me nowhere further along in my career than before," Footman says. "It was not a learning experience and that was what I had expected. This really just seemed like I was just working and wasn't getting paid for it." He's now part of a open class-action lawsuit against Fox Searchlight Pictures, the film's producer. He and another unpaid intern, Eric Glatt, are suing to win back pay for the hours they worked. They're also filing for an injunction that would keep the company from hiring unpaid interns in the future. Footman says he filed papers and ran errands alongside paid employees. Glatt worked as an accountant who kept financial records for the production. Their lawsuit is the first case on unpaid internships in more than a decade. The Department of Labor has said that this sort of work may be illegal for unpaid interns to do. In fact, the Supreme Court ruled more than 50 years ago that only work done for training purposes could go unpaid. The Labor Department says companies began skirting the rule. Last year, it moved to issue a six-point test that for-profit internships must pass to comply with labor laws. Ross Eisenbrey, vice president of the Economic Policy Institute, pushed for that test. His organization looks at life for working-class Americans. He says the test's "essential ingredient is that it has to be for the benefit of the intern, not for the benefit of the employer." Representatives from Fox Searchlight declined to speak with NPR for this story, but they did issue a statement about the case. It reads in part: "Fox Searchlight internships comply with all federal and state laws and regulations." The statement also says that the company provides interns with a "valuable 'real world' business experience." It's this "real world" experience that Bob Yari thinks is necessary to make inroads in Hollywood. "The film industry is an industry that's very difficult to break into," says Yari, who heads Yari Film Group, which made the films Crash and Dave Chappelle's Block Party, among others. "Internships are a way to allow the outsiders to come in and start the process of getting a foothold in the industry. I don't think they're done because [companies] don't want to pay someone to get coffee." Internships have become an almost essential first step on the career ladder, says Phil Gardner, who directs the Collegiate Employment Research Institute at Michigan State University. He says companies don't pay interns because they can get away with it. "Nobody's been called on this. And in economic times when you're cutting the bottom line and meeting your third quarter, I think the rationale is, 'Why pay anything for them?' " he says. Gardner says interns don't know what to expect from employers or what laws they might be breaking. Since interns hope to land a paid position, they aren't very likely to file complaints. But some think companies are just as hard pressed as job seekers in the current economy. Among them is Helana Natt, executive director of the Greater New York Chamber of Commerce. Natt contends companies just can't afford to pay interns the minimum wage. "I'm sure if they can, they would. People don't understand, when you're hiring people it take a lot of time away," she says. According to Natt, companies have scaled back human resources budgets and use internships as a low-cost screening process. But EPI's Eisenbrey thinks unpaid internships cut costs beyond hiring expenses. He says companies have saved big-time by turning the entry-level jobs of yesterday into the unpaid internships of today. "The middle class is being undermined and the way it's being undermined is by having salaries, wages and benefits undermined," Eisenbrey says. "Nothing does that more directly than allowing employers to employ people without paying them. Harnessing The Power Of An Internship June 21, 2011 Hamilton College offers funding for unpaid internships, so students can receive the compensation they need. Many see internships as an opportunity to get a foot in the door and to jumpstart careers. But recently, there has been much criticism that this training time might be exploitive. Host Michel Martin speaks with career expert and author Lindsey Pollack about what to look out for when selecting an internship and how to make the most of the experience. MICHEL MARTIN, host: Internships have become almost required in some circles. They're a way to explore a potential career and hopefully a way to make some money. But there's a growing chorus of critics who are arguing that too many internships aren't worth the time and effort and they're actually just a source of cheap labor.

Lindsey Pollack. She's author of the book "Getting from College to Career." She tells us she's an expert on next generation career trends and she's also the spokesperson for LinkedIn. MARTIN: How important is it, do you think, to have an internship today versus, say, 10 or 15 years ago? POLLACK: You know, internships have become increasingly important. When I graduated from college 15 years ago, it was still OK to work at a summer camp or lifeguard. And now what I'm seeing is students graduating with four or five, six internships, so much, much more important than it was and a lot more controversy around the subject, as you mentioned. MARTIN: Now, are we talking about paid or unpaid internships? And do people really view those in the same way? POLLACK: They do. You know, on a resume you often don't distinguish between whether something was paid or unpaid. So it's about getting the experience, but of course students have to think about whether they can do a paid or unpaid work experience. MARTIN: Now, you know, last year the U.S. Department of Labor actually published some guidelines for private and for-profit companies to make clear what unpaid interns can and cannot do. For example, the internship must benefit the intern and the intern cannot displace actual workers or paid workers, I guess would be the way to say it. So, how big of a deal is this controversy - as you were saying over whether unpaid interns are actually being exploited? POLLACK: You know, I've seen it around the media a lot and it's certainly the talk on college campuses, which is because of the bad economy, are people saying, oh, we'll just hire some interns to do work that we used to pay people for because once we call them internships, suddenly it's magically OK to not pay people. And I think that puts a lot of college students in an uncomfortable position, because they want the experience, but they also want to get paid if they're doing work that somebody got paid to do before. MARTIN: Well, how would you actually wind up negotiating that, actually? Can you really negotiate that? POLLACK: You know, it's really tough on the students because, you know, they feel very powerless. They want the experience. They need the resume experience and credentials to land jobs after college and they don't have a lot of negotiating room. So I think it's really up to, you know, the laws. Up to the career services offices on college campuses to help students understand what they're getting into. And some unpaid internships are perfectly legitimate, but they have to be careful to know which those are. MARTIN: What about, you know, kids who have to work for money to go back to school, so they can't do these unpaid intern programs. How would you recommend a student handling that scenario when they see perhaps that, you know, maybe there is some professional benefit or some networking benefit to be gained by these unpaid internship positions? But they do need to earn some money. POLLACK: You know, you're really getting to the heart of the issue because this whole unpaid internship issue is overlapping with the tremendous student loans that students have today, where they really have to start paying those back, or at least making a dent in their, you know, during their summer. So this is where a lot of the unfairness comes in. We don't want a situation where only wealthy young people can take on unpaid internships. So, you know, a couple of suggestions for students who might be in that situation, they want the work experience. Perhaps they can get it by working part time. There's a new trend called virtual internships where you can do things like, you know, run a company's social media campaign or do something like that as an intern, but you can do it on your own hours while you work as well. And, you know, the other issue is whether or not you get school credit. Some people are paying for credits at a university and then working for free in internships to earn those credit hours. And I think universities really play a big role in this and have to make sure that they protect students and don't require them to work for free because of this issue that a lot of them actually need cash to live and to go to school. MARTIN: Here's the other side of the issue. Apprenticeships, internships sometimes involve some not-so-glamorous tasks: stapling, answering phones, you know, photocopying, getting coffee. And, you know, I do hear employers say, what's up with these kids with this attitude? I did, you know, I got coffee when I was their age, you know. MARTIN: What is the problem? So, what is realistic for young people to expect in that kind of an environment from an internship? POLLACK: Yeah. This is where I get a little tough on the students today. And it's kind of that Generation Y, millennial generation issue that you're talking about. A lot of young people don't want to do the grunt work. And I think back to my first internship in college. I remember having to drive to three different cafes to get fat-free muffins for my boss, you know, because that's all she wanted to eat. POLLACK: But in addition to that, I was able to sit in on meetings. It was a nonprofit. So I sat in on donor meetings. I got to go to networking events. I got to write the newsletter. You have to see the balance, that no job - even the jobs that we do at different levels above internships, there's always going to be some grunt work and some stapling and some administrative stuff.

So I would really encourage students to take that work with a grain of salt, see that it's part of any job. But then look for the opportunities to go above and beyond that kind of basic work to get what they really need out of the internship, which is experience and networking. MARTIN: And, finally, let's say a student does land an internship - whether it's paid or unpaid - with a corporation that does have a record of hiring, you know, interns. Like, there are some companies, for example, that even if you wind up, you know, you start out in the mailroom, but that is known to be, you know, a track that does lead to something. How do you recommend that the students handle that experience to make sure that they impress the people that they want to impress and are invited back? POLLACK: Number one, do the work. When you're asked to something, you know, do it pleasantly. Do it the best you can, no matter what it is. Network with the people in the internship, your peers, the people above you. Make sure that you're somebody who's known. You're not someone who just sits at your desk. And perhaps most importantly, once the internship ends, keep in touch. Let them know that you're interested, and don't fall off the radar screen after the internship is over. Questioning The Ethics Of Unpaid Internships July 13, 2010 While many students can't afford to work for free, others see unpaid internships as the only way to get a foot in the door. And in some cases, interns spend thousands of dollars to work for free. As companies look to cut costs, some canceled internship programs altogether. Others, though, stepped it up to take advantage of unpaid labor. And some face tough questions. The Obama administration recently announced a crackdown on unpaid internships, but critics complain that state and federal guidelines mean little when students desperate to get a foot on the first rung of the ladder decline to complain about working conditions and tasks that can sometimes be described as Dickensian. For others, of course, they learn some of the differences between the classroom and the real world and put valuable experience on their resume. RYAN: Well, I've been learning the ins and outs of the brewing industry. I've been doing everything from administrative work to financial analysis, direct sales, dealing with distributors and suppliers and even brewing. So it's been fantastic. CONAN: So it sounds like you're ready to step in and do almost anything there. RYAN: You know it. It's a small company, and they've really given me an opportunity to see all aspects of this. CONAN: And do you think you'll go into brewing as your career? RYAN: I plan on doing - opening up my own brewery at some point, yes. CONAN: We also have an email from Scott in Sacramento: I was an intern at the Walt Disney World Resort in Florida in 1994 and 1997. I was a food host. Let's not sugarcoat it: I sold expensive burgers. The pay was so meager, it was basically unpaid. I shared a Disney-managed apartment with five other college students. As interns, we took business classes at Disney University - no joke - and cross-trained throughout the resort. The summary: The pay was nothing, the hours were miserable, the experience was amazing, but the resume credentials invaluable. If the company can offer you an experience that can your foot in the door down the road, then sign up. Who is hungry enough to do it? Mr. GREENHOUSE: Yes, internships are increasingly important. There - a lot of college students, high school students realize it's, you know, vital for their resume, even graduate students. The problem is the United States Labor Department has firm rules for when internships should be paid and when they should not be paid, and the Labor Department says internships where you're doing the work normally done by regular employees, when you're doing internships that aren't very educational, when you're doing internships made up of a lot of drudgery and grudge work, in theory, you're supposed to be paid. CONAN: Mm-hmm. Yet you described in your piece interns who complained that they spent their internship working for nothing and mopping up the bathrooms, or I love this one in particular: cleaning the door handles when they were in the midst of the flu epidemic. Instead of doing animation, she had to, you know, clean up the kitchen. She did some work cleaning the bathrooms. And because it was the time of the H1N1 swine epidemic, they would have her clean the doorknobs each morning to make sure no one caught it. And she was really revolted by this internship. She really felt that she wasn't learning anything. She felt she was being taken advantage of. Having said that, Neal, there are some very good internships out there that are valuable, that are truly educational. And sometimes the question is: Where do you draw the line between the ones that are kind of worthless, grunt work, where the company is taking advantage of free labor, and the really good internships, where you learn a lot, and it's not just good on your resume, but it's really good experience that helps you advance in life? CONAN: There's also some definitional problems - the story of a young woman who complained about sexual harassment. The allegation was dismissed because it turned out, as an unpaid intern, she wasn't an employee.

Mr. GREENHOUSE: Yes. That was surprising, this decision by a court in Washington, D.C. And I would think that either Congress or various city councils would pass laws saying paid or unpaid, internships, for the purpose of discrimination and sexual harassment law, will be considering employees because there seems something wrong when an employer could take full advantage, you know, or sexually harass, you know, a young female or male employee and not face any... CONAN: Sanction, yeah. Mr. GREENHOUSE: ...sanctions for doing so, because the intern is not considered an employee. ANN (Caller): Yeah, I'm actually a college teacher. I'm adjuncting around, but I've been in the community a long time. So I know people. And I would have students who would ask me if I would recommend them for internships or help them to find internships. And I did. And the internships, at least reportedly, went very well. And then the companies that they worked for, they were all not-for-profits, when they posted jobs, refused to hire the interns because they only took paid people, people who had paid experience. CONAN: I see. So the experience of working at that particular company as an unpaid worker did not qualify them for the job. ANN: It flat-out disqualified them for the job, because they'd only ever been unpaid people. They had never had paid jobs. ANN: Yeah. Because if they had gone and gotten a job somewhere else, they might have had paid experience. So they could have been working for these places. CONAN: And as far as you know, what did those kids go on to do? ANN: They all went to grad school in their fields at various places, but they still don't have any job experience because their internships wouldn't pay them. Mr. GREENHOUSE: So, Ann, there's a complication here, because let's say an employer says, well, you work for us for three months unpaid, and then we'll hire you. The Labor Department really frowns upon that because it looks as if the employer is squeezing the intern for three months of unpaid work, and the intern is, in a way, bribing the employer with three months of unpaid work to get a job. So, you know, the Labor Department frowns upon unpaid work leading directly to a job. They think that's a situation where employers can take advantage. I think of the situation here in New York, where immigrant workers might have to work two, three, four weeks for free, you know, in a supermarket, stocking the shelves. And then if you're a good boy stocking the shelves for free for four weeks, then the employer might take you. And that's a violation of the minimum wage law, and I think the Labor Department worries that the same situation can happen involving unpaid interns seeking a permanent job. CONAN: And, indeed, the situation is different for not-for-profits and for-profit companies. It's a lot easier to get an unpaid internship at a not-for-profit. Mr. GREENHOUSE: Yes. When you donate your labor, so to speak, Neal, to a nonprofit, it's like considered - you know, it's like giving a donation to Human Rights Watch, a good organization. And you're not really in the same way allowed to, you know, quote, "donate" your work, donate your labor, for profit. The standards are different for doing - having an unpaid internship for a for-profit company and for a nonprofit. CONAN: Here's an email from - this is from Dirk in Chico, California: As a retired university faculty member and the internship coordinator for a degree program, I believe students should learn something from the experience before they even begin work. The first thing to learn is that unpaid internships may indicate a field or a major with too many students and too few potential jobs. That's an interesting way - observation. It's also - there are lots of unpaid internships where you do get course credit. Mr. GREENHOUSE: Neal, yes. A lot of - I mean, a lot of employers - well, the Labor Department often says that one hoop that employers can jump through to provide unpaid internships is to have the intern receive course credit. And that clearly makes it seem more educational, but it seems that more and more colleges are balking at giving credit for internships, especially when they conclude that the internships are, you know, drudgery and grunt work and really aren't very educational. Some colleges seem happy to give credit, you know, for internships because they'll get paid maybe three, four, $5,000 for these credits when they don't even have to provide a professor, you know, to teach that student for those credits. But other schools really think that employers are taking advantage or trying to pull a fast one, and they're very careful about granting course credit, you know, for some internships. CONAN: There's also the question of - this seems to be one of the -well, one area of employment where a recommendation from the friend of a father or somebody's buddy, well, that can really pay off in terms of getting an internship at a prestigious institution, and that's obviously not an opportunity open to everybody. Mr. GREENHOUSE: Yes. In ways, I believe one of the most profound criticisms of the whole unpaid internship system is that, you know, generally, you know, the children of the well-to-do can afford to take an unpaid internship far, you know, far more than, you

know, children from lower-income or middle-income houses. So they have a leg up there. Plus, the children of the well-connected often have, you know, have the best chance of getting internships. So they end up getting a leg up on the career ladder over less wealthy kids. The debate over unpaid interns dates back more than 60 years. The rules that govern today's internships came out of a Supreme Court decision in 1947. The court found in Walling versus Portland Terminal Company that in certain cases an employer can offer training, unpaid, without violating federal law. Later, when the Labor Department put together its six-part list of what qualifies for an unpaid internship, it used the Walling case as its guide. Mr. GREENHOUSE: It's changed a whole lot, Neal, as you know. The 1947 decision really involved blue collar workers who were really doing educational work about how to, you know, operate in a rail yard. And they weren't running real trains. They were kind of, you know, using dummy trains to learn how to do it. You know, fast-forward to, you know, 63 years, to 2010, you know, the economy is much more white collar, and a lot of internships, yes, a lot are educational, but, you know, as you know, Neal, as I know, a lot of internships basically are like answering the phone, and they're really not very educational. And the Labor Department put together the six-part test, which is really taken from this 1947 decision, and some of the criteria in the Labor Department test seem kind of outdated. It says, okay, the internship experience is for the benefit of the intern. That makes sense, but it also says that the employer is not to receive any immediate advantage from the activities of the intern. I mean, that's - you know, I've spoken to some, you know, employment lawyers who say that really goes very far, that you're expecting a company to provide an internship and not to receive any benefit whatsoever in return. I mean, they say that's a stretch, and a lot of, you know, employment lawyers are saying maybe it's time to update these Labor Department rules somewhat. CONAN: Here's an email, this from April in California: I worked low-wage jobs in vintage clothing stores for many years, where most of our duties including steaming, hanging and straightening clothing. When I got a job last year for a vintage clothing ecommerce website as a copy writer, I was utterly shocked and embarrassed to find that the company's interns were performing the exact same menial tasks all day long for zero pay. How the company or the interns saw this as anything other than slave labor was beyond me. I think the unpaid internship situation has gotten completely out of hand, and I've been waiting for the government to address this issue for some time now. I'm so happy this is finally being addressed. And that, if you're doing steam-cleaning and hanging of clothes for no pay, I think you might have a case there. Mr. GREENHOUSE: I would certainly agree, and I think the Labor Department would agree, Neal. What happens is the Labor Department says it wants to crack down, but it's really waiting for students or interns to step forward and complain. But very few students actually step forward and complain because they're scared, they're insecure, they're worried about offending their employer, they're worried about getting fired, they're worried about creating a bad name for themselves. They're worried about getting - let's say an intern wants to work in the movie industry, and he or she is not getting paid in an internship that involves carrying coffee and answering phones. Well, if they complain that I should be paid for this internship, you can imagine how hard it might become next year and the year after, when this intern is applying for real jobs in the movie industry, and people have heard that this guy is a troublemaker, or this woman is a troublemaker, and let's not hire, you know, this intern. SARA (Caller): Hi. I guess my situation isn't unpaid. I do have a little bit of pay coming at my internship, but it's part-time. So I average about 20 hours a week, no matter how much I actually work. If I work 40 hours' worth of work, I only get paid for 20. But I guess my position is now is that I've been told that my position may become full-time, but I don't really know, and so I guess I'm kind of worried that if I start applying for full-time positions elsewhere, there's not going to be anything available, and they kind of have me in a position where they pay me very little, but I'm not getting full-time, and I kind of feel like I'm under-utilizing my skills. And I guess I don't really know what my next step should be - if I should tell my employer, you know, I'm only going to be here for three months and then I'm going to start applying elsewhere, or... CONAN: Well, you don't have to tell them when you start - you don't have to tell them when you start applying elsewhere. That's between you and somebody else, right? SARA: Yeah, but at the same time, I just, you know, I don't want them to think that I would leave, you know, if I felt like there was a full-time position waiting for me at some point. Right now, I just kind of feel like, you know, they talk about it, but I don't know if anything's actually coming. CONAN: Steven Greenhouse, that idea of a full-time job waiting for you upon the completion of your internship, well, I think a lot of people are in that situation. They think there might be. They're hoping there might be, but who knows. Mr. GREENHOUSE: No, absolutely. And I think many people are in Sara's shoes. They're working part-time and they want a fulltime job. And I think Sara, you should make known to your employer that you're eager to work full-time, that you're dedicated, that it's hard to make ends meet on part-time work. You know, the rules about internships are, you know, some can be unpaid, but those that are paid, you have to receive at least the

minimum wage of, you know, 7.25 dollars - $7.25 an hour. So if you're working, you know, 20 hours a week, you multiply that times the minimum wage, you should be earning at least that, and if they go up to 40 hours a week, and let's hope you get that, Sara, they'll then, you know, double your pay. CONAN: So if you're being paid for 20 and working 40, that's a violation. Mr. GREENHOUSE: If it doesn't compute to $7.25 an hour, yeah. CONAN: Ann(ph) writes from Detroit: A friend's daughter worked as intern for a famous fashion designer and had to run errands all over New York City. On one of the outings, someone on a subway burned a cigarette into the intern's arm. When she got back to the designer's office, she got scolded for taking too long - no sympathy for the incident on the train, no reimbursement for the subway, no money for the internship. Needless to say, she quit. LUKE (Caller): Hi. Yeah, I have an internship this year as a lab tech in a small genetics lab, and I'm simply going into my senior year in high school, and I've had to compete against people getting their pre-med in Belmont and places like that. And as you were saying earlier, the only way I was able to get this internship was because of a connection with the boss's son. CONAN: And boy, that's - well, congratulations, Luke, and a lot of these highly prized internships, Steven Greenhouse, are very, very difficult to get. Mr. GREENHOUSE: Yes. I mean, unfortunately we have a very high unemployment rate, and unfortunately it's extremely hard for, you know, young Americans, 18, 19, 20, you know, 22, 23 years old, to find jobs. And they're put in this position where, well, I can't find a paid job, but the next best thing for my resume is to get an unpaid internship. So we have, you know, college students, even some graduate students, sometimes competing with, you know, high school students for internships. And my sense, and tell me if I'm wrong, is that, you know, lab internships are among the best internships. I think they're generally quite educational. Yes, they involve some grunt work, but a, you know, internship at a good lab, you have someone looking over your shoulder, helping to teach you, helping to learn to do things right in science and research. CONAN: Luke, is that your impression? LUKE: Oh, absolutely, no doubt. I'm learning to do things that I didn't even know existed when I got there. Now, I will admit, you know, I'm cleaning the freezer sometimes, but I'm really getting in there and doing a lot of good lab work too. CONAN: And Steve Greenhouse, another article in the New York Times, not in yours but by Hillary Stout(ph), reported that in one case the Robert F. Kennedy Center for Justice and Human Rights recently auctioned media internships to help raise money for its cause. The opportunity to work unpaid went for some pretty big amounts - $2,900 at Vanity Fair, $9,000 at The Huffington Post, and an eye-popping $42,500 at Vogue. Mr. GREENHOUSE: Amazing. It shows that, you know, a lot of people with a lot of money want good internships for their kids because it's a sexy experience, and it also is important for their resume. You know, what gets me, Neal, is, you know, we're seeing a lot of, you know, colleges and universities really making extra efforts to admit low-income and moderate-income students. They're greatly increasing the size of their scholarships, and that's wonderful. But at the same time, I think this whole increase in the number of unpaid internships greatly favors the children of the well-to-do and the well-connected. And so while on one hand you have colleges accepting, you know, more lower-income kids, a lot of them are losing out in this, you know, in this career race because they can't take these unpaid internships with -you know, in Hollywood or in law firms, you know, that they have to help, you know, their parents make ends meet and they spend their summers, you know, working for nine or 10 dollars an hour in a 7-Eleven. And on - you know, for their careers, it might be much better to work -to do an unpaid internship for an ad agency or a law firm or on Wall Street. CONAN: As a political science major, I know I'm headed into a field where you - who you know is really how to get your foot in the door. Most poli-sci internships are unpaid. As a completely independent student who works full time during the school year to make ends meet, I don't have the funds to spend three months or a full semester not being compensated for the work I'm doing. As a result, I miss out on the networking opportunities and the hands-on experiences that are the bread and butter of this field. And that field is not the only one that works that way. JESSICA: Oh, okay. Well, my experience is that after I had graduated with a degree in cultural anthropology (technical difficulties) studies, I had been a student at a school in Yemen during my undergrad and had taken an internship after graduating to go over. And what was supposed to be, you know - it was a stipend of $120, but I ended up working about 12 to 15 (technical difficulties) days with three other people in an office. And we made, you know, $125 a month. We had to share dormitory rooms with the students. And basically we were used as the administrative staff. There was no other administrative staff because what there was were non-English speaking and the school was a school for Westerners, so we ended up doing just about everything. CONAN: And was it - I'm sure it was interesting. Was it worth the experience? JESSICA: You know what, it was worth the experience and I ended up staying a year longer than my contract. I ended up staying three years, mostly because of the country itself, the friends that I made there. I learned a lot about life and about, you know, how to take advantage of a situation that's taking advantage of you and how to, you know, get the most out of things that you don't normally think that you're going to get something out of.

I met my husband there, so there's all that involved. But I'm now working for the parks and rec in Redmond, Oregon, and substitute teaching. And none of the skills that I thought that I was going to get out of it, Middle Eastern studies and my fluency in Arabic and that kind of thing, none of that. And this email from Frank in Green Bay. Perhaps you could point out that in Europe and most of the rest of the world unpaid internships are illegal. They break minimum wage rules and in many countries would result in criminal prosecution of the employer. Obviously not Yemen, maybe. But Steven Greenhouse, do you know if that's true? Mr. GREENHOUSE: I'm not - I think the rules in Europe are stricter. I don't know if they ban unpaid internships altogether. But I'm sure the rules are stricter, and you know, never say never. I can't say for sure that no European country allows unpaid internships or that they ban all unpaid internships. But I think it's clear that, you know, for the past 10, 20 years, the Labor Department has paid very little attention to unpaid internships. And as, you know, the economy has worsened, more and more employers are turning to unpaid internships. You know, some, you know, as I said before, do it legitimately, to do real education. Others really see it as a good, quick, kind of hidden way to get grunt work done for free. And I think only in the past year or two is the government starting to pay attention to this. I think a lot of, you know, parents, you know, are complaining that there's something wrong here, that their kids are having a hard time finding a paid job and that all these employers are willing to take them for free and have them do valuable work but are refusing to pay them. CONAN: Jesse is on the line, calling from San Francisco. Mr. JESSE CUTLER (Owner, JP Cutler Media): Hey, how you doing? My name is Jesse Cutler. I run an independent PR firm in San Francisco, and I cut my teeth in the music industry. And it's interesting because unpaid internships in the music industry have been, you know, going on for so long. And it's been kind of the only way that you can even find a position in any way. And I think what's happening out there right now is that people are losing their jobs and interns more and more are doing the jobs of people that had a full-time gig. So I was at, you know, the age of 22, after graduating from a top 20 college, Oberlin College, with a 3.6 grade point average and kind of decided to get into the entertainment industry instead of doing politics, I was directing national PR campaigns for independent artists and was able to solidify coverage in national media outlets. So I really felt like I was a part of a team. And I did end up getting a full-time gig. And, you know, it was a low-paying gig but it was an amazing opportunity. I stayed with that company for seven years, and then for the past four years I've been running my own company. So I think... CONAN: And I have to ask you, Jesse, do you have interns at your own company? Mr. CUTLER: I, you know, I don't. I have one employee that I pay. And I just kind of am in a situation where I feel like it's important, you know, to still do the photocopying, I guess, is a good way to do it. So I haven't really taken on that kind of responsibility because I think having interns really - you have to be very dedicated to giving them a full-on experience. I'm not cool with them, you know, washing the door handles and stuff like that. So I think you really have to offer them a full experience and not be a waste of their time. CONAN: So long. This from Madeline(ph) at the University of Michigan: I'm an intern with the AFL-CIO this summer, working in Chicago. One thing I really like about my internship is they focus on education and networking. They shepherd us through the world of the labor movement and encourage us to make connections with people who might become mentors for us in the future. Nice to know the AFL-CIO also has interns, Steven Greenhouse. Mr. GREENHOUSE: I'd like to ask Madeline, I hope the AFL-CIO is paying its interns. I don't know if Madeline wrote that in her email. You know, what Jesse said is interesting. My sense is in the movie industry and the music industry, it's almost universal to have unpaid interns. It's just par for the course. And, you know, it's so ingrained, it's almost grandfathered in. You know, it's hard to imagine the Labor Department cracking down on those industries because that's how it's done. I remember when I was interviewing my big article on unpaid interns, someone said Steven Spielberg started out as an unpaid intern carrying coffee. So I think, you know, those are such sexy industries, people are eager to do those grunt jobs even for free. The Unpaid Intern, Legal or Not By STEVEN GREENHOUSE Published: April 2, 2010 With job openings scarce for young people, the number of unpaid internships has climbed in recent years, leading federal and state regulators to worry that more employers are illegally using such internships for free labor. Dana John, a senior at New York University, spent much of a summer internship doing clerical work for a company that books music acts. Convinced that many unpaid internships violate minimum wage laws, officials in Oregon, California and other states have begun investigations and fined employers. Last year, M. Patricia Smith, then New Yorks labor commissioner, ordered investigations into several firms internships. Now, as the federal Labor Departments top law enforcement official, she and the wage and hour division are stepping up enforcement nationwide.

Many regulators say that violations are widespread, but that it is unusually hard to mount a major enforcement effort because interns are often afraid to file complaints. Many fear they will become known as troublemakers in their chosen field, endangering their chances with a potential future employer. The Labor Department says it is cracking down on firms that fail to pay interns properly and expanding efforts to educate companies, colleges and students on the law regarding internships. If youre a for-profit employer or you want to pursue an internship with a for-profit employer, there arent going to be many circumstances where you can have an internship and not be paid and still be in compliance with the law, said Nancy J. Leppink, the acting director of the departments wage and hour division. Ms. Leppink said many employers failed to pay even though their internships did not comply with the six federal legal criteria that must be satisfied for internships to be unpaid. Among those criteria are that the internship should be similar to the training given in a vocational school or academic institution, that the intern does not displace regular paid workers and that the employer derives no immediate advantage from the interns activities in other words, its largely a benevolent contribution to the intern. No one keeps official count of how many paid and unpaid internships there are, but Lance Choy, director of the Career Development Center at Stanford University, sees definitive evidence that the number of unpaid internships is mushrooming fueled by employers desire to hold down costs and students eagerness to gain experience for their rsums. Employers posted 643 unpaid internships on Stanfords job board this academic year, more than triple the 174 posted two years ago. In 2008, the National Association of Colleges and Employers found that 50 percent of graduating students had held internships, up from the 17 percent shown in a 1992 study by Northwestern University. This means hundreds of thousands of students hold internships each year; some experts estimate that one-fourth to one-half are unpaid. In California, officials have issued guidance letters advising employers whether they are breaking the law, while Oregon regulators have unearthed numerous abuses. Weve had cases where unpaid interns really were displacing workers and where they werent being supervised in an educational capacity, said Bob Estabrook, spokesman for Oregons labor department. His department recently handled complaints involving two individuals at a solar panel company who received $3,350 in back pay after claiming that they were wrongly treated as unpaid interns. Many students said they had held internships that involved noneducational menial work. To be sure, many internships involve some unskilled work, but when the jobs are mostly drudgery, regulators say, it is clearly illegal not to pay interns. One Ivy League student said she spent an unpaid three-month internship at a magazine packaging and shipping 20 or 40 apparel samples a day back to fashion houses that had provided them for photo shoots. At Little Airplane, a Manhattan childrens film company, an N.Y.U. student who hoped to work in animation during her unpaid internship said she was instead assigned to the facilities department and ordered to wipe the door handles each day to minimize the spread of swine flu. Tone Thyne, a senior producer at Little Airplane, said its internships were usually highly educational and often led to good jobs. Concerned about the effect on their future job prospects, some unpaid interns declined to give their names or to name their employers when they described their experiences in interviews. While many colleges are accepting more moderate- and low-income students to increase economic mobility, many students and administrators complain that the growth in unpaid internships undercuts that effort by favoring well-to-do and well-connected students, speeding their climb up the career ladder. Many less affluent students say they cannot afford to spend their summers at unpaid internships, and in any case, they often do not have an uncle or family golf buddy who can connect them to a prestigious internship. Brittany Berckes, an Amherst senior who interned at a cable news station that she declined to identify, said her parents were not delighted that she worked a summer unpaid. Some of my friends cant take these internships and spend a summer without making any money because they have to help pay for their own tuition or help their families with finances, she said. That makes them less competitive candidates for jobs after graduation. Of course, many internships paid or unpaid serve as valuable steppingstones that help young people land future jobs.

Internships have become the gateway into the white-collar work force, said Ross Perlin, a Stanford graduate and onetime unpaid intern who is writing a book on the subject. Employers increasingly want experience for entry-level jobs, and many students see the only way to get that is through unpaid internships. Trudy Steinfeld, director of N.Y.U.s Office of Career Services, said she increasingly had to ride herd on employers to make sure their unpaid internships were educational. She recently confronted a midsize law firm that promised one student an educational $10-an-hour internship. The student complained that the firm was not paying him and was requiring him to make coffee and sweep out bathrooms. Ms. Steinfeld said some industries, most notably film, were known for unpaid internships, but she said other industries were embracing the practice, seeing its advantages. A few famous banks have called and said, Wed like to do this, Ms. Steinfeld said. I said, No way. You will not list on this campus. Dana John, an N.Y.U. senior, spent an unpaid summer at a company that books musical talent, spending much of her days photocopying, filing and responding to routine e-mail messages for her boss. It would have been nice to be paid, but at this point, its so expected of me to do this for free, she said. If you want to be in the music industry thats the way it works. If you want to get your foot in the door somehow, this is the easiest way to do it. You suck it up. The rules for unpaid interns are less strict for non-profit groups like charities because people are allowed to do volunteer work for nonprofits. California and some other states require that interns receive college credit as a condition of being unpaid. But federal regulators say that receiving college credit does not necessarily free companies from paying interns, especially when the internship involves little training and mainly benefits the employer. Many employers say the Labor Departments six criteria need updating because they are based on a Supreme Court decision from 1947, when many apprenticeships were for blue-collar production work. Camille A. Olson, a lawyer based in Chicago who represents many employers, said: One criterion that is hard to meet and needs updating is that the intern not perform any work to the immediate advantage of the employer. In my experience, many employers agreed to hire interns because there is very strong mutual advantage to both the worker and the employer. There should be a mutual benefit test. Kathyrn Edwards, a researcher at the Economic Policy Institute and co-author of a new study on internships, told of a female intern who brought a sexual harassment complaint that was dismissed because the intern was not an employee. A serious problem surrounding unpaid interns is they are often not considered employees and therefore are not protected by employment discrimination laws, she said. This article has been revised to reflect the following correction: An article last Saturday about the increasing numbers of college students taking unpaid internships, using erroneous information from a report by the Economic Policy Institute, misstated the results of a 2008 survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers and also the results of a Northwestern University study in 1992 . The NACE survey found that 50 percent of graduating students had participated in internships, not 83 percent. The university study found that of graduating students in 1992, 17 percent not 9 percent had held internships.

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