Howard Griswold Conference CallThursday, May 17, 2012 Partial Howard Griswold Conference calls: conf call (talkshoe)

724-444-7444 95099# 1# (non-talkshoe members must use the 1# after the pin number) Thursdays at 8 p.m., Eastern Time. Talkshoe mutes the phone lines Conference Call is simulcast on: www.TheREALPublicRadio.Net Starting in the first hour at 8 p.m. Note: there is a hydrate water call 8 pm, Eastern Mondays, 218-844-3388 966771# Howards home number: 302-875-2653 (between 9:30, a.m, and 7:00, p.m.) Check out: www.escapeharrassment.com www.escape-tickets-IRS-court.org All correspondence to: Gemini Investment Research Group, POB 398, Delmar, Del. 19940 (do not address mail to Howard Griswold since Howard has not taken up residence in that mailbox and since hes on good terms with his wife he isnt likely to in the foreseeable future.) Donations are accepted. "All" Howard's and GEMINI RESEARCH's information through the years, has been gathered, combined and collated into 3 "Home-Study Courses" and "Information packages" listed at www.peoples-rights.com "Mail Order" DONATIONS and/or Toll-Free 1-877-544-4718 (24 Hours F.A.Q. line) Dave DiReamer can be reached at: notaxman@dmv.com Peoples-rights has a new book available from The Informer: Just Who Really Owns the United States, the International Monetary Fund, Federal Reserve, World Bank, Your House, Your Car, Everythingthe Myth and the Reality. Hell take $45 for the book to help with ads, but $40 would be ok which includes shipping ($35 barebones minimum) www.peoples-rights.com c/o 1624 Savannah Road, Lewes, Delaware 19958 ******************** Christian Walters (trusts) is on Mondays, Tuesdays and Saturdays at nine o'clock, Eastern Time. The number is 1-712-432-0075 and the pin is 149939# (9 pm EST). Wednesdays number is 1-724-444-7444 and the pin is 41875# (8 pm, Eastern) or tune in on Wednesday at Talkshoe.com at http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=41875&cmd=tc

Often you can find a transcript or a partial one for the weeks call at the following website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplelookingforthetruth Howard approves or disapproves all postings to this yahoo group. Send potential posting to Howard.

Note: questions to Howard are now submitted to Howard, preferably typed, to Gemini Research rather than fielded on the call live. It would be desirable to send a couple of bucks for mailing, copying and printing costs. ********************* Extra legal help is available from the firm, Ketchum, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

******************************************************************* **************************************** A recording of each Howard Griswold Thursday conference call is available from Dezert Owl upon request for any sized donation. Go to the following link: www.TheRealPublicRadio.Net/Archives.html . For donations to desert, send them to Free America Radio Network, 121 Seaparc Circle, Suite B, Kingsland, Georgia 31548. Phone number: 912-882-2142. Cell: 304-629-7169.

For reference: Jersey City v. Hague, 115 Atlantic Reporter 2nd, page 8 (A 2nd ) ********** Project for all: Howard needs information on how to write a complaint for breach of the trust. Hit the libraries! He would appreciate any research help. ***************************************************** Start ***************************************************** {01:34:49.074} [Howard] The registering of an automobile is the taking of private property without just compensation and that is a form of theft. No matter how you look at it government does not have the right to take property any more than any individual out here in society has the right to take somebody elses property so it comes right down to theft and they do it and they do it all the time and they get away with it. Now, one thing that Im sure that most people do not understand is that the law of property relates mostly to land when you read about it. It almost always talks about land because land is a form of property and all

other property emanates from the land and falls under the same laws. I dont think people realize that but your automobile came from stuff thats mined out of the ground so it came from the land. Your body is made out of minerals. It came from the land. So its property that emanates from the land. All other forms of property fall into the same category and all forms of property cannot be taken in any way without just compensation or at least the value of the property or of an enterprise. It has to be paid back if theres a value that its over and above the indebtedness against it. Now the reason I bring that up is a lot of people are having mortgage foreclosure problems and our security agreement in the UCC-1 form when properly put together and properly filed has given some people a very interesting argument and a couple people have actually won a foreclosure action using it. I wouldnt recommend that too many people to try that because it wasnt easy and if you dont understand what youre doing you wont be successful. The security agreement in and by itself is probably not going to stop a foreclosure action. As a matter of fact all this information thats out here thats coming out of courts about the -- what do they call that when they reinvest the property? [Dave] The securitization.

[Howard] Yeah, the securitization of it. More than 90|% of the courts are completely ignoring those kinds of argumentsrefusing to even listen to them. Ten percent of the courts maybe are addressing them. Were getting some wins here and there and its coming out in the news, at least the internet news, and its releases on the internet of the court cases, so its real. Its not so much of the phony crap thats on the internet. There is some real stuff that comes out on the internet that can be paid attention to. And these cases have actually been decided by judges because they couldnt prove the chain of title to the documents. The securitization was a form of assignment and once its been assigned it cant be collected on by the assignee and interesting arguments that have been brought up and in a few cases theyve won. One of the biggest ones recently wasI think it was down in Floridaand I believed you talked about it last week. If I remember it was the case down in Florida. What was the name of itdo you recall, Dave? Maybe it was two or three weeks ago you brought it up. That was a case that was about assignments and if its been assigned the assignee does not acquire the collection power. Theres a couple of old cases that go back into the 1960s and 70s involving some of the major banks that the court said the same thing. But lately the courts are not even entertaining an argument of any kind. Theyre just blowing right over what people have to say, telling them, were not going to listen to thatsit downjudgment against you. Theyre getting really out of hand in these courts. But there is a definite advantage to having the secured interest that can be used and its a real simple advantage. Basically I just read it to you. The value of property or of an enterprise, meaning any kind of an activity like a business, over and above the indebtedness against it, i.e., that is the market value of a house, for instance, minus the amount of the mortgage is property that cannot be taken without just compensation and theres a real interesting court case on that. Dorfman v. Dorfman and thats 457 SW Rptr, 2d, p. 417 at p. 422. This is where a security agreement could do you a lot of good on any kind of property that government wants to take or control. If they want to come in and tell you your septic tank isnt up to snuff and you have to fix it, well, theres a value to your property and theyre going to

cost you money and create a loss for you so they have to compensate you for that loss because theyre changing the value of your property because theyre taking value out of your pocket to meet with their regulatory rules so the security agreement exposes on record your interest and your claim to the property and thats whats important. You have to be able to prove your interest in the property and you cant prove it in any other way except having a recorded secured interest. Theres no other way to prove it that you might have an opinion that you bought it, you paid for it, its mine, but that does not count when you come into the courts. Thats not going to be paid attention to. There has to be some documentation because the Constitution just might be just a doggone piece of paper but so is their pieces of paper. Every bit of their pieces of paper are nothing but a doggone piece of paper but they pay attention to those pieces of paper and thats all they pay any attention to. The world of commerce is all on paper and they use the paper and whatever it says on the paper. Well, lets say youre facing a mortgage foreclosure action. Alright, you may not be able to beat the mortgage foreclosure action, especially if you hire a lawyer youre not going to beat it but even going in there on your own theyre liable to ignore you. Once its over and done and they want to take the property then you have a case against them for the equity value in the house. The equity value in the house is whatever you have paid into the mortgage and whatever you put down and also if youve done any improvements on the property whatever value you put into investing in the improvements. All of that combined together comes to some dollar figure. Now, if youre lucky, youve been there long enough, paid for a long enough period of time, spent money improving it to a great enough extent that they owe you more than the remaining mortgage foreclosure. That would probably put a stop to the mortgage foreclosure from going through if you will learn how to bring up the argument and have a secured interest to back up your argument that you have an equity value in the house. The same thing applies to an automobile. You have an equity value in the car to the extent that you paid for it. Dave brought up an interesting point here that keeping the MSO is actually a taking of private property without just compensation. Actually, it is but it isnt. It depends upon how you buy it. If you pay cash on the barrel right then and there for the automobile or the pickup truck or whatever it is youre buying and they keep the MSO then thats a taking of your private property without just compensation. If you finance it, its not your private property yet, you havent finished paying them for it. When you finally finish paying for it the MSO should then be turned over to you just like a deed should be turned over to you by county recorder of deeds office if you carried a mortgage on your house and havent got it paid yet. But when you finally get it paid that deed should be taken back out of the records and given back to you because keeping those papers, those doggone pieces of paper, are beneficial to them but not to you. They would be beneficial to you if they would return them to you but by not returning them to you they continue to use it as collateral to support bonds and loans that they make for their benefit. So theyre making money off of your property and youre not. Its not free and clear for you to do what you want with it. Its encumbered by the fact that they have it and you dont have a proper encumbrance on it. Now, lets see if I can find that because thats an important thing that I came upon today. You have a right to encumber the property against the encumbrance that somebody else had against you such as a lender like a bank. And your failure to do so waives your right to make any claim against the propertybetter equity its called. That is the right which in a court of equity, a second encumbrancer who has

taken securities against the subsequent dealings to his prejudice which a prior encumbrancer neglected to take although he had an opportunity to do so. That goes on and on talking about equity and Im not going to read it all. But the point that it was making was when you brought the property you signed the papers at the settlement to buy the property. For a few seconds it might have been yours but if there was a mortgage on it within seconds that mortgage was posted and encumbered the property. If you buy an automobile, you make a car loan that car loan encumbers the property of the automobile. You had a right to create a secured interest and to record it just like they record their mortgage claims. I dont think they ever bother to record automobile loan claims but they record them when you have to go to court simply because there has to be a connection, I guess youd call it, for the court to be able to assume jurisdiction and that connection has to be somewhere within the states jurisdiction. So thats why they make you record everything especially when youre making loans because in the event that they want to foreclose on any kind of a loan whether its a car loan or a school loan or mortgage loan you have to record something. They do when they make you record and sign so that it can be recorded so thats in a government office and that puts it within the jurisdiction of the court in that governmental area. Without its being there the court cant proceed because it doesnt have any jurisdiction. So thats why they force this recordation mainly on loans. To prevent anybody from understanding the difference they will dupe you into recording something if you paid cash for it just so that nobody thinks that theres a difference but there is a difference. But that recording should be relinquished and returned to you as soon as whatever debt there is against that recorded property has been paid off and they dont do it. So theres your taking of private property. Theres a breach of the fiduciary duty and theres where your security interest comes in to claim your value of the property over and above any debt that anybody else might be claiming against it. You have an absolute right to that value and if you just look at how things are done today, if you didnt pay two car payments they come and take your car. It doesnt matter if you had thirty payments to make and you made twenty-five of them and you miss number twenty-six and twenty-seven they come and take your car. If you lived in the house for fifteen years and you paid the mortgage for fifteen years on a twenty year mortgage and you got five years left to go and you miss two months payment during the fifteenth or sixteenth year they come and take the house and throw you out on the street and give you nothing and theyve been getting away with this forever because lawyers will not tell you that you have an equitable interest in the property to the tune of whatever you have invested in it. And that equitable interest establishes a case for you to claim your moneys worth out of the property being taken no matter whos taking it or what theyre taking it for even on a tax foreclosure actionsame thing applies. I can guarantee you in a tax foreclosure action if you bring this up and argue it correctly that youre entitled to the equitable value of the property especially if its totally paid for. Say you got $100,000 piece of property and you got $13,000 worth of taxes due on it, you claim your $100,000 they got to pay you the $100,000 minus the $13,000 and then its theirs and then they can have it. They cant just take it away from you but theyve been doing it and theyre getting away with it because you wont find a lawyer that isnt scum. They will all take the governments side. They will all use the courts to cheat you and steal from you, every damned one of them. Theres not a good one out there except a bunch of them that have died. Theyre good ones, good and dead and thats the way they ought to be. Your equitable value in

the property is never addressed and its because you dont know about it and you dont know how to. This is one of the real strong reasons why the security agreements, especially the ones that prepared by Gemini Investments are critically important to people in these days because God only knows whats going to happen tomorrow. You dont even know if youre going to be working. You dont even know if the company youre working for is still going to be there. Things are falling apart all around us and the economy, you better be watching the debt collection clock because the debt clock is staring to tick down to the end of the battery that runs it. Theres not going to be much more before all debt encompasses the entire world economy to an extent that the world cant pay it and all economies are going to go down like dominoes, one country after another, one paper money system after another paper money system after another one and the US and China and Russia, theyre all on paper money systems. Theyre going down with these little countries like France, Ireland, Spain and Greece. Those little countries are not going to be the end, theyre going to be the beginning and thats going to take the big ones down with it. So we are facing some really strange times and the clock is ticking and its ticking rather fast. It seems like time is going by. I dont know how it got to the middle of May alreadypast the middle of May. Where did the months of this year go? Time is flying and little has been done and people are losing homes and even losing automobiles and getting nothing back in return. And I think its time we started standing up and utilizing things in the manner that we have a way to do and that is if you dont have a secured interest get in touch with www.peoples-rights.com on your computer or call me at the number I keep giving out and well work something out with you. Well get one together for you and you get it filed locally. Some states are giving us trouble over filing because both names being the same according to these morons who cant spell, they dont seem to understand the difference between capital letters and small letters not the same but they say it is. It proves to you that education didnt make us very bright and none of us. But theres a way to get it recorded in those states. The commercial codeI dont remember the section numbersbut at 9-516, I believe it is, subsection D says that if you can prove that you delivered it to the recorders office and prove that you tendered payment then its effectively filed whether theyve given it an index number and put it in the file or not. So you dont have to worry about whether they did it the way theyre supposed to. Its effectively done as long as you can prove that. Well, theres two ways to go about proving these two things, one way for each, and that is you send it certified mail and you keep the certified mail receipt with it and that proves you delivered it and you make a photocopy of your money order or cash or if youre stupid enough to use checks, of your check to the Secretarys office or the recorders office and theres your proof. And thats all you need to prove that its been recorded. Just in case they get smart alecky which theyve done in a couple of states and actually taking these documents back out several years after they recorded them and said they were unrecording them because they figured out what we were doing. We were laying a claim to the interest in the property which circumvents their interest in the property. Youre the only one that has a real right to an interest in the property. Youre the one whose labor acquired it. Its your private propertythey dont have a right to it. Theyve had no right at all. Making you registering anything was a taking other than the fact that in many cases you did finance it. And because you financed it, it has to be recorded in order to be within the courts jurisdiction. Thats how you fell into that trap but even if you did the secured

interest still outweighs their claim of an interest to it because they never recorded theirs according to the law. The law requires it to be recorded in the Secretary of States office when its moveable property and in the recorder of deeds office when its immovable which means land. Land is immovable. I dont care how much dirt you take off of it, theres still going to be land down there somewhere. No matter how deep you dig its still going to be land so its immovable. Thats recorded at the county recorder of deeds office. If they reject it its easily taken care of by what I just told you about certified mail and a photocopy of your money order that you use to pay for the recording. And then you have the power within you to bring a claim for your just compensation, whatever value it had. And all you got to do go get the tax bill and look at it. The tax bill lists what they call a fair market value. Now thats usually 20 to 25% below what sales values are. But now days its probably rather accurate because sales values have fallen 25% or more so that fair market value thats listed would be the value of it. The same thing is true with automobiles. They have a book, they call it a blue book and you can look it up on the internet and find out what the automobile is worth at the present time. And if its worth less than what you owe then dont fool with it. If its worth a lot more than what you owe then its worth fooling with. Go after that equitable value that it has that you have a right to. Equity does not allow an injustice and its an injustice for someone to take the property and leave you with nothing when you had any kind of an interest in it at all. Equity will not allow that so its an equitable action. Breach of fiduciary duty is an equitable action. It took us a while to figure all this out and put it together. Weve had these security agreements for years but we didnt know how to execute them in this manner until we came up with things like this breach of fiduciary duty lawsuit. Now that we have a form for how to do that and a bunch of cases related to it now we can utilize it and go after them for your equitable value that you have in the property that theyre trying to take from you no matter what kind of property it is. I dont care if its your dog. Youve been feeding that dog. You figure out the cost of its food and the number of years old it is and the cost per year and the cost you paid to buy the dog and thats your equitable value that you have in that dog and that equitable value is a whole lot higher than what the dog is worth but thats what its worth to you so they shouldnt be able to take it without paying you just compensation in the amount of the equitable value that you had invested in. Thats ridiculous taking dogs but they do. Weve had a couple people on the calls in the past asking about problems and what could they do, well, Im sorry we couldnt answer them back then but Ive just given you the answer with a lot of research. And somebodys case that Im doing some research on just led me into this stuff and equity to find this and relate it specifically to our security interest and to the breach of the fiduciary duty law suit. The same thing applies to any action that government takes to regulate your use of your property. A regulatory taking is just another form of a taking of private property. Regulating your property is taking control and taking the interest in the property away from you and forcing you to spend money or do certain things that normally shouldnt have to be done. Thats considered a regulatory taking, government regulations applied to your private property are a taking of private property without just compensation. So again, you have an action for breach of their fiduciary duty. This is a dishonest function on their part to do this. The end result has got to be that they cannot defeat what youre saying. Theyll probably come back with, well, theyre just doing their job. Well, thats fine, they did their job and their job was a taking of my private

property so they just admitted to it, didnt they? So, theyll put their foot right in their own mouth in their rebuttal arguments. So dont worry about their rebuttals. You can shoot them down if you just think for yourself or Ill do the thinking for you. It seems thats what I have to do in most cases is do the thinking for people. And equity does not allow another individual to take advantage of a bad situation that that individual created on another person. Thats another maxim of equity. Every one of these force you into registration is a bad situation that they created and theyre taking advantage of it because its their in the governments office which puts it in the governments courts jurisdiction and allows them to just proceed against you, take your property and give you nothing in return and you have nothing to fight back with unless you can prove that you have an interest in the property. And thats why the security interest developed properly and recorded properly is so critically important because they cannot compete with your interest. If yours is recorded and theirs isnt or even if theirs is but theirs is done by fraud yours still becomes a priority interest. Priority meaning above and beyond anybody elses, thats what priority means, first claim, first right to a claim. They cant defeat that. As a matter of fact, in a lot of cases if you got it recorded and they make an action against any property that youve got on that recorded secured interest you can show the court that they have failed to make a claim against which relief can be granted because they had no interest in the property. As a matter of fact, weve even had government to admit on tax foreclosure actions that they had no interest in the property. But if you got no interest in the property then how can you make a claim against it? If the property didnt do you any damage and it cant because property just sits there and does nothing. People do damage and used property sometimes can do damage but the property itself cant do any damage so how can they make an action against the property when they dont have an interest in it and it didnt do any damage? And theyre the two keys to any court action. There has to be an injury of some kind or there has to be an interest of some kind. Theyre the only two ways that the courts actually acquire any kind of jurisdiction. So lacking a provable injury or lacking an evidence of an interest the other party fails to state a claim upon which relief can be granted and the case should be dismissed no matter who the other party is. I dont care if its a mortgage foreclosure bank, a credit card action, a tax foreclosure action, an IRS action. Where does IRS have an interest? They wont come up and try to prove it even. Theyll just claim its the law. Well, what law? Theres a lot more to the knowledge and information thats out today about Title 26 of the United States Code having never been actually passed into law by Congress much less signed into law by a president. And that goes hand in glove with what Dave brought up earlier from somebody information about theyre not even a legitimate government function under Title 31. Theyre not listed as a legitimate government so theyre renegades running wild. Then again, Im finally concluded that government always has been a wild animal. It just happened to have been caged for years by the Constitution. But it seems that its gotten out of its cages and its running rampant. You know what that means? Thats a dangerous thing to have a wild animal running rampant. Usually, it has to be shotput down. This wild animal called government its definitely out of control and needs to be put down. Dont care how we do it. Id prefer to do it in the courts but it needs to be put down. More here on this equity related to property. The remaining interest belonging to one who has pledged or mortgaged anytime you sign any kind of a loan agreement you have

pledged the property including a mortgagethats a pledge of the propertyto the lender, the alleged bank lenderthe remaining interest belonging to one who has pledged or mortgaged his property or surplus of value which may remain after the property has been disposed of for the satisfaction of liens. A mortgage is a lien, a secured interest of any kind is a lien. A secured interest of any kind is a lien. The amount or value of the property above the total liens or charges is the equitable remaining value. The difference between the fair market value is the equitable remaining value and the debt in the property thus an equity of 5000 may come about by having a fair market value of $20,000 with a remaining value of $15,000. So you would have a $5000 equity involved The deed numbers could apply to automobiles today because they sell in the neighborhood of $15,000-$20,000new ones do anyway. Theyre junk too. I wouldnt waste 10 cents on one of them myself, but people do what they want. That sort of lays it out, doesnt it? I think theres any more in there its necessary to go intoits just necessary that you get the point that maybe youre not going to win the debt collection act. Id fight it. Look around. Get in touch with anybody you can thats working on these kinds of things, not just us because were not really deeply into debt collection act. Find out what to do to fight it. Do the best you can to fight it. If you lose then you fight for the equitable value thats in the property. So dont just lose and walk away. If you do, shame on you because you could have gotten something out of that property that theyre trying to take or that claim of use of your name for credit. Id fight not bringing that up. To fight the debt collection I would use things like they didnt meet the rules of evidence to prove their case properly. That is a good argument. But again just like I said earlier, a lot of these courts are ignoring you. They dont want to hear it. Theyre not going to bother to listen. Theyll go right against you and grant judgment in favor of the bank or the debt collector and ignore you. If they do, thats when you turn it around and go after them for a value. Now, lets take a credit, for instance. This is a good one to talk about simply because they used your name to create the credit and established the money value. So, your name was that value. So lets just say that they gave you a $10,000 credit card. Well, thats the value of your name as far as that card goes. Your name was good enough to establish $10,000 worth of money. Thats an equitable value that you have in that card. So, go sue them for the $10,000 minus whatever is remaining to be paid. Now, lets hope you only owed them $4,000, $5,000, $6,000 out of the $10,000 then you got a little bit of money in value left over. If you owed them the whole $10,000 plus interest, forget it. You havent got anything anymore. You took all the value. If you took all the value dont worry about it. Fight them and try to avoid the judgment if you can. But heres what we learned about those kinds of collections. Ninety percent of the time they dont bother to try to collect from you. They just get the judgment and you know what they do with judgments. They monetize the judgment over again. So theyre getting the money. Theyre getting the money out of it that they want just by monetizing it, by winning the judgment. Thats why in most cases they dont come after you. If they find out you got money or you got a lot of property or something of value thats real valuable they might come after you but even then a lot of times its too much work especially for a little bit like $10,000. $50,000 or $100,000 that makes it worth it because they might have to spend $10,000 or $20,000 in court to do it. So then take $50,000 or $100,000 that makes it worth it if they can get it, if they think they can get it. But in most cases they dont bother to pursue you even after they get a judgment on something like a credit card. They

pursue taking the house away from you on a mortgage foreclosure because they can sell that over again and make their money again and again and again every time they do this to somebody. Thats a real racket that they got going and the only way were going to stop that is to start suing them for the equitable value that people have in the house. So, whatever you put down establishes the beginning equitable value if you put anything down at all. Now, we had a lot of loans that were being made back in 2002, 3, 4, and 5 and 6 that were no money down. You had nothing in it. In those kinds of situations you paid very little theres not enough equity built up and you paid a lot of interest and you didnt pay much on the principle so you cant prove you got much equity in it. Just walk away from something like that. Go somewhere and see if you can bang your head on a wall and get a little sense into it and dont ever get into a stupid predicament like that again. Buy something you can afford, something inexpensive, an old fixer-upper. Dont go for a big expensive house. Thats just common sense that Im telling. Thats not even advisethats just plain teaching common sense. But anyway, if you had a value of any kind you are entitled to that value. This what Dave was trying to imply about the taking of the MSO to an automobile. If you paid for that thing that MSO belongs to you and they either got to return it to you or they got to pay you the value that you paid. They cant keep it because that piece of paper, that doggone piece of paper represents the real thing and represents the actual value. The thing itself is not that importantnot in law. The piece of paper that represents it is what the law uses and thats whats important. So, if you want to clear up and free yourself of any liabilities you got to get these doggone pieces of paper back away from government because that doggone piece of paper is what theyre using to monetize and create money and keep this whole scam going of paper, worthless inflating money. If you dont think its inflating, write down what you bought this week at the grocery store and write down what you bought next week at the grocery store and look at the total prices and write down what you bought the week after that at the grocery store and youll find out you pretty consistently buy the same thing. And each week youre spending more money. You dont think inflation is running rampant, just look at grocery pricesits running rampant.